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October 22 2021 5.24pm

Why Can't The French Stop Them Coming?

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Sep 21 7.49am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

EU army? Never going to happen, never been discussed, according to some on here

Yup how many times were we told this was just a scare story and rubbish and yet talks start next year lead by Macron.

Interestingly it is being reported that the EU would like the UK to have some form of military collaboration with them. Err no thanks they can't or wont defend themselves wont spend money on their own military (Germany) so they suddenly think lets get the Brits involved maybe their not as bad after all..

I am not against co-operation when the UK and the EU's national interests are threatened but this should be a case by case involvement.

We have already seen how reckless the EU can be over the Ukraine so I don't want us dragged into one of their messes and we end up doing the fighting whilst the Spanish Germans etc applaud us from the sidelines.

Trump was right, too many EU countries not pulling their weight when it comes to military spending and commitment.

 


One more point

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View Henry of Peckham's Profile Henry of Peckham Flag Eton Mess 17 Sep 21 8.47am Send a Private Message to Henry of Peckham Add Henry of Peckham as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Yup how many times were we told this was just a scare story and rubbish and yet talks start next year lead by Macron.

Interestingly it is being reported that the EU would like the UK to have some form of military collaboration with them. Err no thanks they can't or wont defend themselves wont spend money on their own military (Germany) so they suddenly think lets get the Brits involved maybe their not as bad after all..

I am not against co-operation when the UK and the EU's national interests are threatened but this should be a case by case involvement.

We have already seen how reckless the EU can be over the Ukraine so I don't want us dragged into one of their messes and we end up doing the fighting whilst the Spanish Germans etc applaud us from the sidelines.

Trump was right, too many EU countries not pulling their weight when it comes to military spending and commitment.

We already collaborate with France and NATO because we don't have enough resources/ equipment to defend our own aircraft carriers. I think the US still provide some of the aircraft operating from our carriers? All but one of our type 45 destroyers are in dock because their engines are faulty and we are likely to scrap our new tank programme because that doesn't work either ... I think we need to give up any aspirations we have to compete with any superpowers.

 


Denial is not just a river in Egypt

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View kuge's Profile kuge Flag Peckham 17 Sep 21 9.04am Send a Private Message to kuge Add kuge as a friend

Originally posted by Henry of Peckham

We already collaborate with France and NATO because we don't have enough resources/ equipment to defend our own aircraft carriers. I think the US still provide some of the aircraft operating from our carriers? All but one of our type 45 destroyers are in dock because their engines are faulty and we are likely to scrap our new tank programme because that doesn't work either ... I think we need to give up any aspirations we have to compete with any superpowers.

Absolutely, the idea that we have sufficient money to run a global police force is ludicrous. Showing off our aircraft carrier to the Chinese is pretty pointless too.

 

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 17 Sep 21 11.18am Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Yup how many times were we told this was just a scare story and rubbish and yet talks start next year lead by Macron.

Interestingly it is being reported that the EU would like the UK to have some form of military collaboration with them. Err no thanks they can't or wont defend themselves wont spend money on their own military (Germany) so they suddenly think lets get the Brits involved maybe their not as bad after all..

I am not against co-operation when the UK and the EU's national interests are threatened but this should be a case by case involvement.

We have already seen how reckless the EU can be over the Ukraine so I don't want us dragged into one of their messes and we end up doing the fighting whilst the Spanish Germans etc applaud us from the sidelines.

Trump was right, too many EU countries not pulling their weight when it comes to military spending and commitment.

It's the definition that I took issue with many moons ago, and how you've interpreted it. The aim is not to create a singular, national army abolishing EU Army.

The reality is very different, with a model very similar to the NATO approach, but solely for the EU. Also, there's no such thing as the 'NATO Army' is there. Same thing here. It's a collection of national armies being used in a collaboratively agreed political way.

Now, if you have issue with the EU, or European countries as a whole wanting to have their own version of NATO that removes the need for the US to be on board every time there is a conflict or political flare up, then that's a very different, and valid, conversation to have.

But the idea that there will be a centralised EU Army that replaces all European sovereign armies is a fantasy.

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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jeeagles Flag 17 Sep 21 1.40pm

Originally posted by Badger11
Yup how many times were we told this was just a scare story and rubbish and yet talks start next year lead by Macron.

Interestingly it is being reported that the EU would like the UK to have some form of military collaboration with them. Err no thanks they can't or wont defend themselves wont spend money on their own military (Germany) so they suddenly think lets get the Brits involved maybe their not as bad after all..

I am not against co-operation when the UK and the EU's national interests are threatened but this should be a case by case involvement.

We have already seen how reckless the EU can be over the Ukraine so I don't want us dragged into one of their messes and we end up doing the fighting whilst the Spanish Germans etc applaud us from the sidelines.

Trump was right, too many EU countries not pulling their weight when it comes to military spending and commitment.

I still don't think this will happen, it's simply too complicated.

But just to play devil's advocate and looking at the condition of European Armies.

The French might want it to happen to ensure Italy, Spain, Germany pay their fair share. France has a world class military, approximately on par with the British Armed forces. Between us we are probably the most effective major forces in the world per pound spent.

Germany might want it to happen as they have domestic opposition to expanding their own armed forces.

Whilst German's spend is low, they only had a small West German defence force between 1955 and 1991. They were forbidden from taking place in operations abroad until 1994, and the German economic recovery has centred around not funding an army (there's the saying - if you want to be good at building cars, first you must lose at war).

Spending alone isn't the only issue. You can't simply gear up spending. They have an inexperienced and presumably ineffective armed forces.

Similarly, the break up of the soviet Union would have left a void in the former Eastern Blocs armed forces. Most had to reform in 1990 and are still playing catch up.

There's possibly a benefit of having a greater cooperation between EU member states, but each has its own very specific defense objectives which means they will never agree to a single force.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 17 Sep 21 1.59pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

EU army? Never going to happen, never been discussed, according to some on here

I don't think anyone thought it hadn't been discussed. Indeed, it clearly has been. Nor that it wouldn't happen.

I think the denials were of the idea that the UK would somehow be forced to join it. I don't think that was ever even a remote possibility. I can imagine France, Italy and Germany merging their armed forces and some smaller countries joining them. I can imagine, even now, us co-operating on procurement. What I could never imagine was us delegating command of our forces to an EU authority. Unless, of course, NATO collapsed.

This was always Project Fear!

 

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 17 Sep 21 2.08pm Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

[Link]

Not the best of sources but seems to be an idea not going away.

Originally posted by Spiderman

EU army? Never going to happen, never been discussed, according to some on here

 


A lie will travel half way around the world before the truth has got it's shoes on.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 17 Sep 21 2.52pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Rather than thinking about an army the EU should be more concerned about still existing.

The politicians may be mighty full of themselves and drunk on collective power but the citizens of the EU think far less of them than they do.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 17 Sep 21 2.53pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

The EU already has battlegroups but not the political will to deploy them.

The proposal is not of an EU army at present but more of a rapid reaction force as David Cameron favoured.

France and the EU are getting the message, after Afghanistan and aukus, that the USA acts in its own interests, so it has to adjust its stance, moving away from dependence on another disastrous president who has again split his allies without even a word.

So I would think Macron will be pulling out all the stops here to make France top dog militarily.

How right De Gaulle was all those years ago, he said 'non' because of the UKs special relationship with America, he pulled France out of NATO freed his country from being dragged into wars as we could well be here (Mrs May).

How it could ever be in our interests to mess with the most powerful country in the world on its own doorstep God only knows, but Johnson is just thick enough to be pushed (and push us) into the abyss.


.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Sep 21 2.57pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

It's the definition that I took issue with many moons ago, and how you've interpreted it. The aim is not to create a singular, national army abolishing EU Army.

The reality is very different, with a model very similar to the NATO approach, but solely for the EU. Also, there's no such thing as the 'NATO Army' is there. Same thing here. It's a collection of national armies being used in a collaboratively agreed political way.

Now, if you have issue with the EU, or European countries as a whole wanting to have their own version of NATO that removes the need for the US to be on board every time there is a conflict or political flare up, then that's a very different, and valid, conversation to have.

But the idea that there will be a centralised EU Army that replaces all European sovereign armies is a fantasy.

I don't think I have ever said there would be a single EU army it would be a rival to NATO with each country contributing but who makes the political decisions.

I actually don't care if they go ahead and do this as we are now out of it and if it suits us to co-operate from time to time with the EU fair enough.

The issue for this EU military alliance as I see it is that France is the only meaningful military force so the others who so far have shown a reluctance to spend money and commit men will have to step up.

I suspect that is the reason why the EU appears to be holding out an olive branch to the only other effective force in western Europe.

I hope Boris says thanks but no thanks (to the alliance not co-operating when it suits us).

As another poster has said we should stop being the policeman of the world let the US and China slug that one out.

 


One more point

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Sep 21 3.04pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

The EU already has battlegroups but not the political will to deploy them.

The proposal is not of an EU army at present but more of a rapid reaction force as David Cameron favoured.

France and the EU are getting the message, after Afghanistan and aukus, that the USA acts in its own interests, so it has to adjust its stance, moving away from dependence on another disastrous president who has again split his allies without even a word.

So I would think Macron will be pulling out all the stops here to make France top dog militarily.

How right De Gaulle was all those years ago, he said 'non' because of the UKs special relationship with America, he pulled France out of NATO freed his country from being dragged into wars as we could well be here (Mrs May).

How it could ever be in our interests to mess with the most powerful country in the world on its own doorstep God only knows, but Johnson is just thick enough to be pushed (and push us) into the abyss.

.

Good points I don't want to be dragged into pointless wars that are none of are business. If France wants to do the bleeding and dying for the EU sooner or later their people will demand that the others states stop hiding behind France's skirts.

The EU can be politically dangerous as we saw with their attitude to the Ukraine which provoked Russia and then the EU did nothing.

A lot of hot air from EU politicians when there is a crisis but low on actually action mainly because most of the 27 don't want to get involved.

We should not be dragged around by the US or the EU but keep our own counsel and only act when it suits us. Harold Wilson showed us that with Vietnam.

 


One more point

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View croydon proud's Profile croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 17 Sep 21 3.07pm Send a Private Message to croydon proud Add croydon proud as a friend

Seeing as this thread is about why the French can}"t stop the migrants, I thought it only fair to post that the leader of Islamic state in the Greater Sahara, with a $5 million bounty on his head, has been neutralised by the French troops. Adnan Abu walid ai-sahrawi, was behind an ambush in Niger ,killing eight soldiers. He was also behindthe killing of six French aid workers and their Nigerian guide and driver. Credit where credits due to monsieur Macron!

 

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