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February 5 2023 1.29pm

CONservative government incompetence.

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Online Flag Horsham 25 Jan 23 8.37pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

Simple deflection. What else do you unilaterally decide it doesnít need? Ever worked in healthcare? Very diverse. Ever been responsible for managing such a diverse workforce? It takes effort.

You keep on simply parroting the Daily Mail and the Sun. Thereís a good chap.

What deflection?It was an opinion about diversity officers being employed at over inflated salaries, when the NHS is underfunded, apparently. I commented about the problems BF have in trying to recoup costs, unless of course you donít think they should?
Have you ever worked for BF? I am no parroting anyone, I am speaking from experience. You just go on believing you know everything about everything, thereís a good chap

Edited by Spiderman (25 Jan 2023 8.43pm)

Edited by Spiderman (25 Jan 2023 8.44pm)

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Online Flag Horsham 25 Jan 23 8.38pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

This is bloody brilliant - we are now 13 years in Tory leadership and I must have read 100s of times on here about the economy they inherited and the little note that was left and that's why they're so incapable of doing anything.

I honestly don't know how some people square off their own biases.

I just stated it will be a readymade excuse, are you confident Labour or their supporters will not use this excuse?

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 25 Jan 23 11.46pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

What deflection?It was an opinion about diversity officers being employed at over inflated salaries, when the NHS is underfunded, apparently. I commented about the problems BF have in trying to recoup costs, unless of course you donít think they should?
Have you ever worked for BF? I am no parroting anyone, I am speaking from experience. You just go on believing you know everything about everything, thereís a good chap

Edited by Spiderman (25 Jan 2023 8.43pm)

Edited by Spiderman (25 Jan 2023 8.44pm)

The deflection is saying the NHS is wasting money on diversity managers. It is very tricky to manage, so I can believe there is a need. But, like the right wing media, you seem to believe that because a small amount of money is spent on something you donít understand, ergo the NHS is useless at budgeting and/or managing. The next step is then we should not give it additional funds as it would only waste them.

You are fed this nonsense by people that use private health and who just want to have more money by screwing over anyone that isnít in the same position. And that, in a nutshell, is Conservatism. Devil take the hindmost. Donít contribute to the general good as only those that are rich are really worth bothering with. If you arenít rich then probably you are feckless.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 25 Jan 23 11.49pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

What deflection?It was an opinion about diversity officers being employed at over inflated salaries, when the NHS is underfunded, apparently. I commented about the problems BF have in trying to recoup costs, unless of course you donít think they should?
Have you ever worked for BF? I am no parroting anyone, I am speaking from experience. You just go on believing you know everything about everything, thereís a good chap

Edited by Spiderman (25 Jan 2023 8.44pm)

No, Iíve never worked for the Border Force. Yes, we should charge those who donít contribute to the NHS and who donít habitually live here. In advance except under exceptional circumstances. Yes we should collect fees for anyone from whom we didnít recover in advance.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Online Flag 26 Jan 23 12.03am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

The deflection is saying the NHS is wasting money on diversity managers. It is very tricky to manage, so I can believe there is a need. But, like the right wing media, you seem to believe that because a small amount of money is spent on something you donít understand, ergo the NHS is useless at budgeting and/or managing. The next step is then we should not give it additional funds as it would only waste them.

You are fed this nonsense by people that use private health and who just want to have more money by screwing over anyone that isnít in the same position. And that, in a nutshell, is Conservatism. Devil take the hindmost. Donít contribute to the general good as only those that are rich are really worth bothering with. If you arenít rich then probably you are feckless.

Not me. I'm as rich as feck.

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 26 Jan 23 9.30am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

I just stated it will be a readymade excuse, are you confident Labour or their supporters will not use this excuse?

Of course they will, as supporters of every new government do - it's just a moot point.

It's particularly amusing in the context of the current government and the length of time they have been using the line.

 

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View The Dolphin's Profile The Dolphin Flag 26 Jan 23 10.04am Send a Private Message to The Dolphin Add The Dolphin as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

The deflection is saying the NHS is wasting money on diversity managers. It is very tricky to manage, so I can believe there is a need. But, like the right wing media, you seem to believe that because a small amount of money is spent on something you donít understand, ergo the NHS is useless at budgeting and/or managing. The next step is then we should not give it additional funds as it would only waste them.

You are fed this nonsense by people that use private health and who just want to have more money by screwing over anyone that isnít in the same position. And that, in a nutshell, is Conservatism. Devil take the hindmost. Donít contribute to the general good as only those that are rich are really worth bothering with. If you arenít rich then probably you are feckless.

Maple - are you saying that you think that the billions of pounds the NHS is given is spent wisely by them?
Forget diversity officers for a minute, albeit they are a small part of the problem.
It is the bigger picture I am interested in.
I am sure that this Government and others before it must take some blame but when NHS Trust A gets x billion pounds it ius up to them to use it wisely - in my opinion they don't do that because they are in general run by imbeciles that you wouldn't let run your local pub!

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 26 Jan 23 12.29pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

I hope we can all agree that this is just plain crazy and what the NHS management need to address

ByLaura Donnelly, HEALTH EDITOR
ďPointlessĒ bureaucracy is helping hospitals grind to a halt, a leading doctor has warned.
Dr Gordon Caldwell, who has just retired after 40 years as an NHS hospital consultant, said ďhorribly inefficientĒ paperwork around patients moving in and out of wards is fuelling record delays.
The senior doctor took a photograph of all the forms required for one medical admission to an NHS hospital, laid against his 5ft 10in frame.
Dr Caldwell said promises by the NHS to ďdigitiseĒ the health service had simply seen needless bureaucracy transferred on to poor computer systems that were often incompatible with each other.
The specialist in general medicine and diabetes endocrinology said: ďA few years ago there were estimates that nurses were spending around 50 per cent of their time on paperwork; now Iíd say itís closer to 70 per cent.Ē
ďItís bureaucratic and itís very slow and horribly inefficient,Ē he said.
NHS hospital, which
Dr Caldwell said the rise of unthinking officialdom was one of the factors that led to his recent retirement.
Too often, dozens of forms were produced with little thought given to duplication, or how to obtain the key information quickly. He said the issue is one of the reasons why whole days are lost to admission and discharge of patients.
Latest figures show almost six in 10 patients who were well enough to be discharged were stuck in hospital in the week ending Jan 15.
Meanwhile, monthly data shows more than 55,000 A&E patients endured trolley waits of more than 12 hours to get a bed, after the decision was taken to admit them.
Dr Caldwell said time spent completing forms that duplicate each other, and waiting for pharmacies to issue prescriptions, was slowing down processes at every turn.
ďEven when they are replaced with digital forms the problem is the same, there is very bad software that often doesnít link up with other software Ė so thereís time wasted with pharmacists typing in information and then having to retype into another system for the labels. As well as being a waste of time itís adding risks at every stage.Ē
ďA lot of hospitals are washing their hands of responsibility for the delays, saying that itís all people who canít get social care. But, in fact, the vast majority of patients go home independently; even if you get them home in two to four hours, that could have a big effect on the number of people held in the system.
ďI would have patients ready to go home at 9am but because they need a prescription they would be left waiting until 3pm, just for that,Ē he said.
ďWhy are we wasting hours and hours filling in pointless forms?Ē said Dr Caldwell, who has long campaigned on the issue.
ďGenerally all they do is take those horrible papers and make them into a digital form, without anyone asking if this is the best way to do it. And there is so much information in so many different places that it increases the risk that something important gets missed.Ē
Poor design of systems
The leading consultant said poor design of systems meant staff were forced to answer a catalogue of questions, however irrelevant.
In 2019, when working at Lorn and Islands hospital, Oban, Argyll, Scotland, Dr Caldwell took a photograph of all the forms required for one medical admission with diabetes in need of intravenous antibiotics.
When he laid against them on the floor, even one side of each two-sided sheet stretched long beyond his frame.
He said the bureaucratic demands were typical for an NHS hospital Ė and getting worse.
When working in Worthing hospital, nurses complained it was taking them 40 minutes to document their assessment of an admission to the acute medical unit. The senior consultant introduced an alternative format, which cut the process to around 10 minutes.
Dr Caldwell said the spiralling bureaucracy was getting worse, with little oversight to streamline demands, and instead a separate form for each issue.
ďToo often there is a new form for everything. We donít want deep-vein thrombosis, we donít want pressure sores, we donít want falls, of course we donít. But each has been allowed to throw a new form into the system until you could literally spend all your time filling in forms,Ē he said.
ďI used to carry a stopwatch around with me but Iíve never known anybody measure time other than myself. The NHS doesnít seem to indulge in the simplest forms of time-and-motion studies,Ē added Dr Caldwell.

 


One more point

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 26 Jan 23 12.35pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

To add to my above post last night I called 999 for my neighbour who yet again had fallen over. I have done this many times before.

She was not in serious danger and the ambulance turned up in about 30 minutes which considering she was not critical was pretty good. 2 lovely female ambulance staff sorted her out and were there about 2 hours. Apart from when they both lifted her off the floor (she is very frail) one of the staff spent most of the time on a tablet filling in forms.

No criticism of the staff but she was complaining about the amount of paperwork she had to do.

They do a great job and some paperwork has to be done but Jesus that would have driven me up the wall, join the Ambulance service and make a difference (by filling in bleedin forms).

As Churchill said to the armament manufacturers during WWII "Give us the tools and we'll finish the job".

 


One more point

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Online Flag Horsham 26 Jan 23 12.44pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

To add to my above post last night I called 999 for my neighbour who yet again had fallen over. I have done this many times before.

She was not in serious danger and the ambulance turned up in about 30 minutes which considering she was not critical was pretty good. 2 lovely female ambulance staff sorted her out and were there about 2 hours. Apart from when they both lifted her off the floor (she is very frail) one of the staff spent most of the time on a tablet filling in forms.

No criticism of the staff but she was complaining about the amount of paperwork she had to do.

They do a great job and some paperwork has to be done but Jesus that would have driven me up the wall, join the Ambulance service and make a difference (by filling in bleedin forms).

As Churchill said to the armament manufacturers during WWII "Give us the tools and we'll finish the job".

Having to do ridiculous amount of paperwork, which deflects from actually doing the job, seems to be rife in the Oubkic Sector

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 26 Jan 23 1.21pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by The Dolphin

Maple - are you saying that you think that the billions of pounds the NHS is given is spent wisely by them?
Forget diversity officers for a minute, albeit they are a small part of the problem.
It is the bigger picture I am interested in.
I am sure that this Government and others before it must take some blame but when NHS Trust A gets x billion pounds it ius up to them to use it wisely - in my opinion they don't do that because they are in general run by imbeciles that you wouldn't let run your local pub!

No organisation gets every investment decision right every time.

Any organisation dependent upon recent Government whims is worse off than most.

A big issue is that pre-emptive investment can't be made due to lack of Government, not NHS, foresight. As a result we do little to address the root causes of poor health and we are unable to put in longer term investments. As an example, we were promised 40 new hospitals by the Government. Since then the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) sent out guidance to NHS trusts on "key media lines" to use when responding to questions about the pledge. It defined a "new" hospital in three ways:

A whole new hospital on a new site or current NHS land
A major new clinical building on an existing site or a new wing of an existing hospital
A major refurbishment and alteration of all but the building frame or main structure

It said there was a variety of schemes but they "must always be referred to as a new hospital".

And even then, when the definition has been reduced to one new clinical building, since the 2019 promise 5 new hospitals have been started, 12 new wings and 9 rebuilds. So not much more than half what we were promised.

We should note that the NHS is not responsible for Public Health initiatives. They fall to The UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) and The Office for Health Improvement and Disparities (OHID).

Another way to look at this is that we spend US$5,387 per capita on health in the UK. We are outspent by most developed economies (Ireland for example) and the US spends $12,318. As I am sure you know, we are viewed variously as 10th or 13th worldwide for our health outcomes (the scandinavians tend to be best) and the US around 18th. Yet when I worked for United Health (largest US health insurer and operator) they were totally convinced that at some point they would be given a big slice of the NHS to run. I myself was responsible for supporting a decent sized chunk in Lincolnshire for them.

So how about you rethink your 'opinion' in the light of the above facts?

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 26 Jan 23 1.27pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

Having to do ridiculous amount of paperwork, which deflects from actually doing the job, seems to be rife in the Oubkic Sector

It is rife in any healthcare setting, because getting stuff right is a matter of life or death. For example everyone in a care home should have a care plan, medicines management is critical, CQC requires data and judges sites upon it etc. Do you really think the private sector has less? If so, in my experience you would be wrong. And by the way, I have run two private hospitals and loads of care homes.

Furthermore, the alternative to a centrally run system which requires data to operate is a privately run system which... requires data to operate.

From Reuters

Over one third of all healthcare costs in the U.S. were due to insurance company overhead and provider time spent on billing, versus about 17% spent on administration in Canada, researchers reported in Annals of Internal Medicine.

Cutting U.S. administrative costs to the $550 per capita (in 2017 U.S. dollars) level seen in Canada could save more than $600 billion, the researchers say.

Edited by Mapletree (26 Jan 2023 1.30pm)

As a matter of interest, according to The Kings Fund, best estimates suggest that the NHS spends roughly £8 billion of its £100 billion budget on management and administration.

Edited by Mapletree (26 Jan 2023 2.53pm)

Edited by Mapletree (26 Jan 2023 2.55pm)

 

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