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January 29 2022 12.44pm

Drug Use In The House of Commons

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 07 Dec 21 4.41pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

How hard do you make enforcement though?
Is it worse than mugging or stabbing.
Is it worse than drink driving or TDA.
Prohibition could be an example of how hard to go but with my other post I'm being hypocritical with my thoughts about alcohol once prohibition was cancelled. Difficult one to call.
Maybe concentrate on heroin and work backwards, I don't know.

Snap mate, I'm glad it's not my job to seriously think about it other than chewing the cud.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 07 Dec 21 4.50pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I think you broadly answer it in your own post - you will never eradicate problem users, the same way you never eradicate problem drinkers, but you ensure the support structures are there for the people who need them - treat addiction as a health problem rather than a criminal one - there's quite a lot in the Portgual study I shared about that, and we manage to do it to some extent already with alcoholics and people trying to quit smoking.

Problematic use of drugs (legal and illegal) is strongly correlated with poverty and deprivation - creating a society where not so many people feel the need to alter the reality to quite that extent they do and quite as often as they do is a much more worthwhile ambition than more prohibition.

Given the amount of money thrown at this over the decades and the number of people convicted, I would challenge that assertion - how much more does he want us to spend? how many more people in prison?

You are someone who puts a lot of stock in human nature - basically every culture in human history have used psychoactive substances, so there is nothing unusual or unnatural in people's desire to do these things (there are many examples of animals seeking natural 'highs' in the animal kingdom) - knowing that as a reality; we either try to fight it, or we accept it and adjust our approach - I think it's fairly obvious what makes more sense.

The reality is that any level of evidence-based approach to this problem would conclude that Portugal's (and other's) approach has been astronomically more successful in 5 years than the war on drugs has in 50 - the question is why do we continue to bang our head against the same wall?

Maybe you're more right than going down a zero tolerance approach....which has its own significant issues both morally and practically....as I agree...fighting human nature is punching ourselves in the face most of the time and it's always better to try to encourage its better angels over forcing people...which has the end result of criminalising them for self harm.

Perhaps they could combine Portugal's approach with similar campaigns as they do with smoking or encouragement towards healthy lifestyles away from drugs while chasing those addicting the young......maybe Portugal already do that I don't know.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 07 Dec 21 5.15pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Maybe you're more right than going down a zero tolerance approach....which has its own significant issues both morally and practically....as I agree...fighting human nature is punching ourselves in the face most of the time and it's always better to try to encourage its better angels over forcing people...which has the end result of criminalising them for self harm.

Perhaps they could combine Portugal's approach with similar campaigns as they do with smoking or encouragement towards healthy lifestyles away from drugs while chasing those addicting the young......maybe Portugal already do that I don't know.

Agree.

You only have to look at how drastically the number of people smoking cigarettes has reduced over the last 10-20 years.. it wasn't achieved through prohibition or tougher penalties, it was achieved through educating people on the risks and providing support for those struggling to overcome their addiction - we know it works!

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 07 Dec 21 5.24pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Agree.

You only have to look at how drastically the number of people smoking cigarettes has reduced over the last 10-20 years.. it wasn't achieved through prohibition or tougher penalties, it was achieved through educating people on the risks and providing support for those struggling to overcome their addiction - we know it works!

Any approach that reduces the crime and suffering has to be the better route both morally and economically.

Let's hope you're right because I think legislation is the direction of travel politically.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Dec 2021 5.25pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 07 Dec 21 5.40pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Agree.

You only have to look at how drastically the number of people smoking cigarettes has reduced over the last 10-20 years.. it wasn't achieved through prohibition or tougher penalties, it was achieved through educating people on the risks and providing support for those struggling to overcome their addiction - we know it works!

Charging £13 for 20 and making 10s unavailable might have had more to do with it.

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 07 Dec 21 5.47pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Charging £13 for 20 and making 10s unavailable might have had more to do with it.

You can't actually believe that?

That changed in 2017 - smoking rates were plummeting long before that.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 07 Dec 21 6.43pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Well the Scots have the answer, ban all the hurty words

[Link]

 


One more point

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 07 Dec 21 6.47pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Well the Scots have the answer, ban all the hurty words

[Link]

Puritan zealots.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag Chatham 07 Dec 21 8.59pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by The Dolphin

I will bow out - it is a pointless argument.
I have seen enough suffering from drugs and I hope none of you see the same in your lifetimes

That's a shame as its not a thread that should be seen as arguing. It is opinions and sadly yours will be different. Have you been around lots of drinkers to make a comparison?

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 07 Dec 21 10.36pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

You can't actually believe that?

That changed in 2017 - smoking rates were plummeting long before that.

And they were too expensive then. Combined with the fact that you can barely smoke them anywhere. You want to legalise smoking one thing and demonise another?

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 08 Dec 21 7.50am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

And they were too expensive then. Combined with the fact that you can barely smoke them anywhere. You want to legalise smoking one thing and demonise another?

Sorry, no idea where you’ve got the impression I want to demonise cigarette smokers - I used cigarettes as an example of how you can reduce usage of a substance without the need to ban it.

And to be clear, I am also not advocating that people should be encouraged to take illegal drugs, simply that they should have the choice to do so if they want to.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 08 Dec 21 9.03am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Sorry, no idea where you’ve got the impression I want to demonise cigarette smokers - I used cigarettes as an example of how you can reduce usage of a substance without the need to ban it.

And to be clear, I am also not advocating that people should be encouraged to take illegal drugs, simply that they should have the choice to do so if they want to.

Sorry - crossed wires but I do think the smoking ban in pubs/workplaces had a lot to do with it.
Like most on here I have no idea how to resolve this beyond thinking treatment rather than punitive measures is a better route but I worry about more situations developing like Dundee which has less than half the population of Croydon and x 10 the drug deaths.

[Link]

 

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