Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 Forest Hillbilly  in a hidey-hole 26 Dec 23 4.39am |
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So who were the idiots courting Ukraine so publicly to join NATO.? That was the move that gave Russia the all-clear to mobilise their military. And what was NATO's ace card ? Sanctions: which impacted our own economies. Best lets just sweep that under the carpet.
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Badger11  Beckenham 26 Dec 23 7.38am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Until those who talk about 'appeasement' put themselves in the front line then know that these are fake words. These people are terrible for any peace makers because in Russia the exact same argument would be used when people push for coming to terms.....Something that was possible in March 21 and these people rejected and used these arguments.....with the result that now we have a far worse outcome. I've never been against a warrior fighting for their country. This wasn't a war they could win and they were let down by their leaders but those men did their duty. But I'll always be against the person who cheers on a fight when they would never turn up to fight themselves. Those people are....well, we know what they are, we saw them in the playground cheering on the fights and we see them in adult life too. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2023 12.29am)
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| Badger11 Beckenham 26 Dec 23 7.39am |
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Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly
So who were the idiots courting Ukraine so publicly to join NATO.? That was the move that gave Russia the all-clear to mobilise their military. And what was NATO's ace card ? Sanctions: which impacted our own economies. Best lets just sweep that under the carpet. Poking the bear.
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| Stirlingsays 26 Dec 23 8.27am |
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Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly
So who were the idiots courting Ukraine so publicly to join NATO.? That was the move that gave Russia the all-clear to mobilise their military. And what was NATO's ace card ? Sanctions: which impacted our own economies. Best lets just sweep that under the carpet.
They wanted to take Ukraine away from Russian influence, so they decided to do it.....Even though it was slavic and a border country. There was a hell of a lot of corrupt money flowing through Ukraine and as we know the Biden family itself was involved there. Regardless, the US weren't satisfied with Ukraine being neutral, but in the end, it's been proven that this would have been the sensible strategy for Ukraine.....Instead now it's a destroyed country that will be relying upon western taxpayers for decades. The use case is the same as at the beginning. If we want to beat Russia....which in my view is fifty fifty with a significant chance of us all dying.....Then you have to go to war with Russia properly. None of the western countries were ever prepared to go to an war economy and life and death over this.....Which meant that the whole policy was a disaster to begin with. There was never a gain to any of it. Low quality elites. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2023 8.29am)
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| Stirlingsays 26 Dec 23 8.31am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I've heard this many a time in pubs Yep, it's easy to talk tough when you're not the one taking punches. Respect the lions, not the hyenas. Sensible leaders don't throw away their warriors and there has been an awful lot of that here. But worse than that are the geopolitical consequences of these decisions. That's where the real stupid hits home. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2023 8.34am)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 26 Dec 23 10.38am |
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If Russia was objecting to America siting nuclear weapons on an isolated island within an area clearly within its sphere of influence, then the analogy would have some relevance. It doesn’t. This is NATO, not America, responding to a request of a sovereign nation which is also the buffer state between Russia and other NATO countries. A state which wishes to join NATO and the EU and not to align with Russia. This is then completely different. Ukraine won’t and was never going to be allowed to join NATO. It would for ever be a buffer state, although more tending, through its own choice, to be more economically aligned with the west. That’s clear to everyone and Putin uses the idea that the west is trying to creep to his border as an excuse to justify his actions to his people. It’s sad to see these excuses being swallowed and regurgitated by some here. And once again we see the ridiculous idea that only fighting age men and women should offer opinions on this. If that were true this thread would be redundant. No one wants to go to war with Russia. Nor do they seek any direct influence over the way it organises itself. All that is required is for its aggression to cease and for it to stay within its own borders and respect those of others. Those are the geopolitical issues. It’s a simple aim. Achieving it with a country you cannot trust at all is the difficult part. To suggest there was never any gain is nonsense. Not having an untouched Russian military on our borders again, is a significant gain. You don’t have to poke the bear for it to be dangerous. It only requires it to be in your vicinity for that.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 26 Dec 23 10.52am |
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whooosh,....
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| Stirlingsays 26 Dec 23 11.09am |
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Nato literally has nuclear capable delivery systems aimed at Russia sitting in Poland. This guy either doesn't know what he's talking about or is just ignorant....considering the point was made to him earlier in the thread I suspect he's just doing his usual tactic of repeating nonsense regardless. Rather obviously the push to take Ukraine away from being neutral was an incredibly bad choice as Russia views this as an existenial threat. Just as America rightly viewed Cuba, right next to it, siding with Russia a threat.....and did just about everything it could to change that. The hypocrisy here is so thick that even neutrinos couldn't breach it. Like saying that Nato isn't America when it makes up most of its funding and military. As we have seen here when it comes to Nato when America says jump, Europe asks how high.....just as long as they don't have to pay the budget price for having proper militaries......Do people really fancy losing their pensions so that we can have a war time 300, 000 size army and military? And let's not forget that because of the degenerate gay nudist beach fans the kind of people who would populate that army aren't nationalists willing to die for King and Country anymore.....The reality is that you would have to conscript to fight a war like that.....I don't detect the desire for people to send their grandchildren out to fight for a pointless war just because the State department and neo cons don't like Putin. But as usual we get the nonsense positions from a guy who seemingly supports every bad decision out there.....If the decision cost him personally I think we could be pretty sure he wouldn't be as keen. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2023 11.14am)
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| Stirlingsays 26 Dec 23 11.25am |
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Trump warned that bringing in the Democrats meant wars, Biden denied it as did people on here but Trump was proven right. Regardless this war will be negotiated whatever all the neo cons talking about appeasement, but who won't fight themselves, think about it. No, once again, Russia isn't coming over the hill, all of these fear mongering lies have been long debunked....and once again, we have nuclear weapons and if any European country thought that we would have been on a war economy 18 months ago. Also, let me focus upon this claim that this Ukraine policy was sensible because fighting and reducing the Russian military is a good idea. The only people who believe the nonsense this poster types are either people with the IQ of a Sunday Sport reader or those that didn't know the size of the Russian military before this war and what the size of it now is. Russia is now on a war economy and its military is over twice the size. That decision was taken after this war started. Not before it. Europe lost a cheap gas and wheat resource and we now have a new cold war to give to our children. Yeah, real bright policy in Ukraine. I say keep incompetent people away from the chess board.....For all his faults Kissenger would have never have been this stupid. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2023 11.32am)
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| Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 26 Dec 23 12.21pm |
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How can the West negotiate with Russia with a 'strong' hand, when energy prices are only just starting to level, and our economies are verging on recession ? Militarily, NATO was shown to have no cohesion and reliant on the USA leadership and money. No-one had the stomach for a fight.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 26 Dec 23 4.08pm |
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Both Russia and NATO possess and will continue to possess nuclear capacity sufficient to ensure mutual destruction. Especially when sited on submarines. That though isn’t the point. Having tactical nuclear weapons on your doorstep together with the support needed to follow up their use is what is. Better to keep them at as great a distance as possible. NATO is not an existential threat to Russia. It has no reason to be. Putin knows that full well. Whatever else he is, he is not a fool. His claims are just excuses and not reasons. Trump like big lies to keep the misinformed at home onside. Unfortunately both the gullible and the appeasement enthusiasts in the west seem willing to swallow them too. We will have to see whether the weakening of support for NATO in the USA actually produces anything, or whether wiser heads prevail. Should support be withdrawn, or significantly weakened then all bets are off, urgent reappraisals needed and the potential for a very serious calamity heightened. It’s the best reason I know to make sure there is a sensible person in the WH in 2025. Russia isn’t “coming over the hill”! No one has suggested it is. The threat is much more subtle, nuanced and long term. It’s the slow nibbling away at weak spots, undermining them until they collapse or just taking them with the assumption there will be no response. Look no further than Crimea. Of course there are costs. Everything costs. That’s never the question. As with the lockdown v no lockdown argument it’s easy to count the cost of something you do whilst only theorising about the costs of something you haven’t done. That’s why we employ experts to take decisions rather than modern day barrack room lawyers who trawl the dark corners of the web searching out theories to support their prejudices. I prefer we rely on the experts. It’s better when playing chess to keep computer game nerds away from the board. Kissinger loved chess. He also listened to experts. Neither Russia and especially nor the west needs a huge conventional army these days. So no conscription in the west as I cannot foresee any scenario in which we directly fight the Russians. Those who imagine us fighting a WW2 style war in the middle of the 21st century really are living in the past. The only reason Russia has increased its military is because of its failure in Ukraine and the need to throw ever greater resources at it. How long the people will tolerate that, and the economic costs it brings, must be questionable. It’s hurting them. That was the idea. That it also hurts us is just the cost we must bear. Putin has openly stated that he resents the collapse of the USSR and wants it to be recreated. That is what he regards as his ultimate destiny, however long it takes. The question for us is whether that matters to us. If not then do we stand aside, or even help him? If it does do we put as many obstacles in his way to try to disrupt the plans and hope the people tire of him and replace him, or when he eventually goes choose someone with other ideas. Obviously right now the assessment is that it does matter.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Helmet46 Croydon 26 Dec 23 8.09pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Both Russia and NATO possess and will continue to possess nuclear capacity sufficient to ensure mutual destruction. Especially when sited on submarines. That though isn’t the point. Having tactical nuclear weapons on your doorstep together with the support needed to follow up their use is what is. Better to keep them at as great a distance as possible. NATO is not an existential threat to Russia. It has no reason to be. Putin knows that full well. Whatever else he is, he is not a fool. His claims are just excuses and not reasons. Trump like big lies to keep the misinformed at home onside. Unfortunately both the gullible and the appeasement enthusiasts in the west seem willing to swallow them too. We will have to see whether the weakening of support for NATO in the USA actually produces anything, or whether wiser heads prevail. Should support be withdrawn, or significantly weakened then all bets are off, urgent reappraisals needed and the potential for a very serious calamity heightened. It’s the best reason I know to make sure there is a sensible person in the WH in 2025. Russia isn’t “coming over the hill”! No one has suggested it is. The threat is much more subtle, nuanced and long term. It’s the slow nibbling away at weak spots, undermining them until they collapse or just taking them with the assumption there will be no response. Look no further than Crimea. Of course there are costs. Everything costs. That’s never the question. As with the lockdown v no lockdown argument it’s easy to count the cost of something you do whilst only theorising about the costs of something you haven’t done. That’s why we employ experts to take decisions rather than modern day barrack room lawyers who trawl the dark corners of the web searching out theories to support their prejudices. I prefer we rely on the experts. It’s better when playing chess to keep computer game nerds away from the board. Kissinger loved chess. He also listened to experts. Neither Russia and especially nor the west needs a huge conventional army these days. So no conscription in the west as I cannot foresee any scenario in which we directly fight the Russians. Those who imagine us fighting a WW2 style war in the middle of the 21st century really are living in the past. The only reason Russia has increased its military is because of its failure in Ukraine and the need to throw ever greater resources at it. How long the people will tolerate that, and the economic costs it brings, must be questionable. It’s hurting them. That was the idea. That it also hurts us is just the cost we must bear. Putin has openly stated that he resents the collapse of the USSR and wants it to be recreated. That is what he regards as his ultimate destiny, however long it takes. The question for us is whether that matters to us. If not then do we stand aside, or even help him? If it does do we put as many obstacles in his way to try to disrupt the plans and hope the people tire of him and replace him, or when he eventually goes choose someone with other ideas. Obviously right now the assessment is that it does matter. Thats the only thing you’ve ever written that I agree with.
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