Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried? - Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website

Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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W12 13 May 22 2.37pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I'm not someone who thinks Russians are above war crimes as I think culturally these two people are similar and psychos are everywhere and emboldened by the brutality of war and its chaos. However, anyone who claims they know the breakdown of war crimes is only speaking in their own capacity. No one actually knows. The best you can do is watch the footage of what is posted by both sides and take in reports on the ground from independent sources....not that many exist. I'm someone who believes in the professionalism of European armies, eastern or not, and while I recognise that there are edge cases and unfortunate circumstances where people die. That said there is a big gap between that and deliberately murdering civilians or pows. This is either the command structure of units being corrupted, state security elements or rogue or mercenary elements. Whichever side does this sick evil stuff it needs to be investigated and fair judgement made.....Do I think this will happen on either side? No. This latest event however is receiving a lot of press. Perhaps this will get proper investigation. All the questions looked into and a conclusion reached. If what is reported is accurate I do indeed hope those soldiers are brought to justice. What I will say is that anyone is serious about the truth of this war and is looking at footage of war crimes from more than just one side will understand that it isn't one sided by any stretch of the imagination. I could put footage of Ukrainians knee cappings Russian pows who were left to die and who where humiliated while they died with their bodies reportedly burnt after it....we were told this would be investigated....yeah right. I could link to where footage of a tied up Russian pow being knifed and then finally murdered with a knife through the eye into the brain....all complete with screams.....that stuff makes you very angry. There are mass claims by citizens in the Donbas of Ukrainian civilians being fired on by Ukrainian troops.....there is certainly shelling of civilian areas by the Ukraine....even the UN have reported on that. There is sick and twisted stuff in this war.....is it more sick than any other war....I doubt it but a lot of it has certainly been videoed. You only get shown what the filters allow. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 May 2022 2.33pm) Neither am I
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W12 13 May 22 2.37pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I'm not someone who thinks Russians are above war crimes as I think culturally these two people are similar and psychos are everywhere and emboldened by the brutality of war and its chaos.

However, anyone who claims they know the breakdown of war crimes is only speaking in their own capacity. No one actually knows. The best you can do is watch the footage of what is posted by both sides and take in reports on the ground from independent sources....not that many exist.

I'm someone who believes in the professionalism of European armies, eastern or not, and while I recognise that there are edge cases and unfortunate circumstances where people die. That said there is a big gap between that and deliberately murdering civilians or pows.

This is either the command structure of units being corrupted, state security elements or rogue or mercenary elements. Whichever side does this sick evil stuff it needs to be investigated and fair judgement made.....Do I think this will happen on either side? No.

This latest event however is receiving a lot of press. Perhaps this will get proper investigation. All the questions looked into and a conclusion reached. If what is reported is accurate I do indeed hope those soldiers are brought to justice.

What I will say is that anyone is serious about the truth of this war and is looking at footage of war crimes from more than just one side will understand that it isn't one sided by any stretch of the imagination.

I could put footage of Ukrainians knee cappings Russian pows who were left to die and who where humiliated while they died with their bodies reportedly burnt after it....we were told this would be investigated....yeah right.

I could link to where footage of a tied up Russian pow being knifed and then finally murdered with a knife through the eye into the brain....all complete with screams.....that stuff makes you very angry.

There are mass claims by citizens in the Donbas of Ukrainian civilians being fired on by Ukrainian troops.....there is certainly shelling of civilian areas by the Ukraine....even the UN have reported on that.

There is sick and twisted stuff in this war.....is it more sick than any other war....I doubt it but a lot of it has certainly been videoed.

You only get shown what the filters allow.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 May 2022 2.33pm)

Neither am I

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BlueJay UK 13 May 22 2.47pm
Originally posted by W12 What is it you don't get? / You are the one constantly rejecting even the most blatant war crimes, and claiming that you've never seen footage of a war crime committed by the Russians on the Ukranian people. I'm perfectly aware that war crimes take place on both sides and have repeatedly acknowledged the situation as such. Certainly there are a multitude of reasons as to why we're here, but we are where we are. You fob off war crimes committed by Russia during a mass and ongoing invasion that intended on reaching the Capital. Anything Kremlin seeded you go with, anything with evidence in the other direction and you're looking for 'shadows' to convince yourself its not true. This goes beyond comenting on issues; it's unnerving. This 'evil Ukranians' mantra during with a broad attack on their country is ridiculous. You combine this with the idea that arming a people trying to defend themselves is some kind of shameful act. We all know where it would lead for them if countries didn't, even if only as a negotiation tactic built on the futility of continuing the invasion. As I say, your 'analysis' is basically the same lurched extreme with which you view all issues that you've made your mind up about. No nuance. Mantra as opinion. I tend to go with the idea that Putin may well be ill, is trying to push to make as much ground as possible, with a diplomatic 'reset' occuring when he meets his end. This attack on Ukraine was as entirely optional as it is counterproductive to his and the Russian states aspirations. Edited by BlueJay (13 May 2022 2.53pm)
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BlueJay

UK 13 May 22 2.47pm

Originally posted by W12

What is it you don't get?
/

You are the one constantly rejecting even the most blatant war crimes, and claiming that you've never seen footage of a war crime committed by the Russians on the Ukranian people. I'm perfectly aware that war crimes take place on both sides and have repeatedly acknowledged the situation as such.

Certainly there are a multitude of reasons as to why we're here, but we are where we are. You fob off war crimes committed by Russia during a mass and ongoing invasion that intended on reaching the Capital. Anything Kremlin seeded you go with, anything with evidence in the other direction and you're looking for 'shadows' to convince yourself its not true. This goes beyond comenting on issues; it's unnerving. This 'evil Ukranians' mantra during with a broad attack on their country is ridiculous.

You combine this with the idea that arming a people trying to defend themselves is some kind of shameful act. We all know where it would lead for them if countries didn't, even if only as a negotiation tactic built on the futility of continuing the invasion. As I say, your 'analysis' is basically the same lurched extreme with which you view all issues that you've made your mind up about. No nuance. Mantra as opinion. I tend to go with the idea that Putin may well be ill, is trying to push to make as much ground as possible, with a diplomatic 'reset' occuring when he meets his end. This attack on Ukraine was as entirely optional as it is counterproductive to his and the Russian states aspirations.

Edited by BlueJay (13 May 2022 2.53pm)

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Stirlingsays 13 May 22 3.21pm
Originally posted by W12 Neither am I I agree. Because only alleged (probably true) Russian war crimes are being posted if you counter with scepticism or the fact that the other side do sick stuff too....you get called pro Russian. I think I kind of support scepticism from whatever side it comes from. I wouldn't blame someone for never taking anything at face value....well not until they have looked into from more than one angle. If someone is for a curated picture of what is happening in the Ukraine because they recognise the original wrong of the Russian invasion I still think that supports a one eyed perspective. At the end of the day what do we want? Do we want a degree of truth that can support our perspective or do we want the uncomfortable truth warts and all? I recognise that nothing bad for one side will get the chance to be independently investigated.....you have to kind of go on probabilities....and that's not good. When I looked into lesser known stuff from WW2 I was kind of dismayed by the realisation that it's curated rather than a realistic retelling of what happened. The objective stuff I should have been taught had been replaced by a normie 'Dad's Army' version more suitable for movies that reality. I instinctively don't like that. I might be in the minority but I want the red pill not the blue one.....I think the western tradition demands it.....well the older western tradition perhaps. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 May 2022 3.28pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 May 22 3.21pm

Originally posted by W12

Neither am I

I agree.

Because only alleged (probably true) Russian war crimes are being posted if you counter with scepticism or the fact that the other side do sick stuff too....you get called pro Russian.

I think I kind of support scepticism from whatever side it comes from. I wouldn't blame someone for never taking anything at face value....well not until they have looked into from more than one angle.

If someone is for a curated picture of what is happening in the Ukraine because they recognise the original wrong of the Russian invasion I still think that supports a one eyed perspective. At the end of the day what do we want? Do we want a degree of truth that can support our perspective or do we want the uncomfortable truth warts and all?

I recognise that nothing bad for one side will get the chance to be independently investigated.....you have to kind of go on probabilities....and that's not good.

When I looked into lesser known stuff from WW2 I was kind of dismayed by the realisation that it's curated rather than a realistic retelling of what happened. The objective stuff I should have been taught had been replaced by a normie 'Dad's Army' version more suitable for movies that reality. I instinctively don't like that.

I might be in the minority but I want the red pill not the blue one.....I think the western tradition demands it.....well the older western tradition perhaps.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 May 2022 3.28pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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W12 13 May 22 3.59pm
Originally posted by BlueJay You are the one constantly rejecting even the most blatant war crimes, and claiming that you've never seen footage of a war crime committed by the Russians on the Ukranian people. I'm perfectly aware that war crimes take place on both sides and have repeatedly acknowledged the situation as such. Certainly there are a multitude of reasons as to why we're here, but we are where we are. You fob off war crimes committed by Russia during a mass and ongoing invasion that intended on reaching the Capital. Anything Kremlin seeded you go with, anything with evidence in the other direction and you're looking for 'shadows' to convince yourself its not true. This goes beyond comenting on issues; it's unnerving. This 'evil Ukranians' mantra during with a broad attack on their country is ridiculous. You combine this with the idea that arming a people trying to defend themselves is some kind of shameful act. We all know where it would lead for them if countries didn't, even if only as a negotiation tactic built on the futility of continuing the invasion. As I say, your 'analysis' is basically the same lurched extreme with which you view all issues that you've made your mind up about. No nuance. Mantra as opinion. I tend to go with the idea that Putin may well be ill, is trying to push to make as much ground as possible, with a diplomatic 'reset' occuring when he meets his end. This attack on Ukraine was as entirely optional as it is counterproductive to his and the Russian states aspirations. Edited by BlueJay (13 May 2022 2.53pm) I've not seen credible evidence yet of widespread Russian wars crimes and it's the clear attempts at fakery (we are getting the whole gamut from the "Ghost of Kiev" and "Snake Island" bulls*** to "babies thrown out of incubators" and "mass graves" that we've seen in previous conflicts like Sadam's "rape rooms" ) that warrant paying more attention Anyway, would you read that article I linked to earlier as an attempt to participate in that nuance you speak of or do not view a senior military analyst as a credible source? Edited by W12 (13 May 2022 4.00pm) Edited by W12 (13 May 2022 4.16pm)
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W12 13 May 22 3.59pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

Edited by BlueJay (13 May 2022 2.53pm)

I've not seen credible evidence yet of widespread Russian wars crimes and it's the clear attempts at fakery (we are getting the whole gamut from the "Ghost of Kiev" and "Snake Island" bulls*** to "babies thrown out of incubators" and "mass graves" that we've seen in previous conflicts like Sadam's "rape rooms" ) that warrant paying more attention

Anyway, would you read that article I linked to earlier as an attempt to participate in that nuance you speak of or do not view a senior military analyst as a credible source?

Edited by W12 (13 May 2022 4.00pm)

Edited by W12 (13 May 2022 4.16pm)

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Stirlingsays 14 May 22 12.40pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Oh you hate alright, even if you are in denial about it. You are blinded by hatred. Of course, "white supremacist" is a term used by those who oppose them. They are unlikely to use it themselves, especially as they don't even recognise that's what they are. A "supremacist" is someone who sees themselves, and people like themselves, as superior to those who aren't, on irrational grounds. I am not so sure "Neema" doesn't consider himself "white". He is certainly a cheer leader for those who think racial difference is important. I am aware of what he was, but his views changed sufficiently for him to lose his job because of them. Having found a niche to exploit in which to make money, he is now busy pandering to that sentiment. It has shades of Alex Jones, and others, in the USA, who milk the gullible by feeding them with their desire for confirmation of their biases. That's what his "channel" is all about. I want to return to this disingenuous post and comment on it at a deeper level. Wisbech comments on Neema Pavini here as if he has any knowledge of the guy at all. Instead what you get here is a surface level, 'hope not hate' like dismissal of him. Yet he admits he doesn't listen to his podcasts nor, as he stated in a previous post, will buy even his last book to find out. To my mind that dismissal is dishonest and moaist. When I grew up I watched Parkinson, both originally in the eighties and on later re-emergemence starting in 98 through to 07. That show would have a wide range of intellectual and political ideas on it. Unlike today you would often see genuine discussion of disparate ideas but social and political. While it was a talk show and wasn't specifically about those things it was natural for them to emerge and treated as a natural and accepted part of discussion. We have lost that today and I don't have to go on about why that is, how it came about and all the rest of it. What I will say is that the only places now where you can find genuine free discussion where ideas can be traded without censor is alternative media. Censorship has mainly hit the right but not exclusively so. There are significant voices on the left who are subject to censorship and who complain about it. For example, both Dore and Brand complain about the censorship efforts against them. On alternative media there are leftist intellectuals who have also been subject to significant censorship. The intellectual called 'Destiny' is a notable figure, being banned from Twitch over what he suspects was his view that trans shouldn't compete in women's sports events. Read Wisbech's post above. Wisbech and unfortunately some others want to paint and pigeon hole people to within a his preferred stereotypical frame of being like a skinhead Nazi, mindlessly promoting aggressive hatred instead of ideas. He and others do this to scare away anyone from actually listening because he knows the likely truth is different. It's the very opposite of an honest ideas marketplace as he has himself admitted he doesn't even know what Pavini thinks. I can relate that back to Wisbech here.....I don't think he's actually interested in what the real manner of alternative media are because his interest is purely in protecting the establishment. In his eyes he's done very well out of the system and that's all he cares about. In my view he isn't interested in any deeper truths, unfairness or any of the rest of it......it's an instinctive urge to fight back over any change that would affect him and his. The poster, who deliberately moved to provincial, Tory voting, highly undiverse, Cornwall, who urges others to embrace change is in fact the very opposite when it comes to himself.....a 'change for thee, not for me'. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 May 2022 12.47pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 May 22 12.40pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Oh you hate alright, even if you are in denial about it. You are blinded by hatred.

Of course, "white supremacist" is a term used by those who oppose them. They are unlikely to use it themselves, especially as they don't even recognise that's what they are.

A "supremacist" is someone who sees themselves, and people like themselves, as superior to those who aren't, on irrational grounds.

I am not so sure "Neema" doesn't consider himself "white". He is certainly a cheer leader for those who think racial difference is important.

I am aware of what he was, but his views changed sufficiently for him to lose his job because of them. Having found a niche to exploit in which to make money, he is now busy pandering to that sentiment. It has shades of Alex Jones, and others, in the USA, who milk the gullible by feeding them with their desire for confirmation of their biases.

That's what his "channel" is all about.

I want to return to this disingenuous post and comment on it at a deeper level.

Wisbech comments on Neema Pavini here as if he has any knowledge of the guy at all. Instead what you get here is a surface level, 'hope not hate' like dismissal of him. Yet he admits he doesn't listen to his podcasts nor, as he stated in a previous post, will buy even his last book to find out. To my mind that dismissal is dishonest and moaist.

When I grew up I watched Parkinson, both originally in the eighties and on later re-emergemence starting in 98 through to 07.

That show would have a wide range of intellectual and political ideas on it. Unlike today you would often see genuine discussion of disparate ideas but social and political. While it was a talk show and wasn't specifically about those things it was natural for them to emerge and treated as a natural and accepted part of discussion.

We have lost that today and I don't have to go on about why that is, how it came about and all the rest of it.

What I will say is that the only places now where you can find genuine free discussion where ideas can be traded without censor is alternative media.

Censorship has mainly hit the right but not exclusively so. There are significant voices on the left who are subject to censorship and who complain about it.

For example, both Dore and Brand complain about the censorship efforts against them. On alternative media there are leftist intellectuals who have also been subject to significant censorship. The intellectual called 'Destiny' is a notable figure, being banned from Twitch over what he suspects was his view that trans shouldn't compete in women's sports events.

Read Wisbech's post above. Wisbech and unfortunately some others want to paint and pigeon hole people to within a his preferred stereotypical frame of being like a skinhead Nazi, mindlessly promoting aggressive hatred instead of ideas. He and others do this to scare away anyone from actually listening because he knows the likely truth is different. It's the very opposite of an honest ideas marketplace as he has himself admitted he doesn't even know what Pavini thinks.

I can relate that back to Wisbech here.....I don't think he's actually interested in what the real manner of alternative media are because his interest is purely in protecting the establishment. In his eyes he's done very well out of the system and that's all he cares about. In my view he isn't interested in any deeper truths, unfairness or any of the rest of it......it's an instinctive urge to fight back over any change that would affect him and his.

The poster, who deliberately moved to provincial, Tory voting, highly undiverse, Cornwall, who urges others to embrace change is in fact the very opposite when it comes to himself.....a 'change for thee, not for me'.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 May 2022 12.47pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 14 May 22 12.54pm
For an intelligent debate of ideas on the Ukrainian war between Destiny And Elijah Schaffer (Schaffer sitting on the left), that you don't get on the mainstream here is a recent debate. I would agree with Schaffer's opening statement but the level of debate and argumentation is sadly missed in the mainstream today. [Link] Compared to that rag tag group of 'yes' people in parliament you can see that the most intelligent people don't actually get to represent you.....establishment and party cronies do. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 May 2022 6.22am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 May 22 12.54pm

For an intelligent debate of ideas on the Ukrainian war between Destiny And Elijah Schaffer (Schaffer sitting on the left), that you don't get on the mainstream here is a recent debate.

I would agree with Schaffer's opening statement but the level of debate and argumentation is sadly missed in the mainstream today.

[Link]

Compared to that rag tag group of 'yes' people in parliament you can see that the most intelligent people don't actually get to represent you.....establishment and party cronies do.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 May 2022 6.22am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Matov 14 May 22 1.00pm
Rouble at its highest level against the dollar in two years. LOL. Also watched this last night highlighting the shortages in Russian supermarkets... [Link] LOL. We are being played to a level never seen. And all bought to you by the same people who can look you in eye and tell you that a man can have a cervix. And a woman a p****. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

14 May 22 1.00pm

Rouble at its highest level against the dollar in two years. LOL.

Also watched this last night highlighting the shortages in Russian supermarkets...

[Link]

LOL. We are being played to a level never seen. And all bought to you by the same people who can look you in eye and tell you that a man can have a cervix. And a woman a p****.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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W12 15 May 22 12.11am
Everything is fake and gay
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W12 15 May 22 12.11am

Everything is fake and gay

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matthau South Croydon 15 May 22 8.21am
It’s a fake ww3 narrative. A battle has ensued but it’s not what you think. There is a clean up operation happening globally with human trafficking and Putin is helping. Biden lot help create the issue there years back And whilst your all being distracted and watching Johnny depp on tik tok, the greatest transfer of wealth is happening right under your nose. CBDCs are being put in place and will go partially live on 4 July. Xrp Algorand and xlm will go live first. This is why the regulations are in fast track process currently. Tether is next. Clean up on that front too I mean, in what war have you ever seen so many politicians and celebs visit for camera opportunities? Wake up. Dismiss this at your peril. I’m going to be rich come July and have been stacking my xrp at the ready ‘But if Biden family was guilty of that then why is he president?’ That’s not Biden ffs. [Link] [Link] [Link] Your watching a carefully played out movie where people in high positions have already been arrested and are playing along for sake of lesser sentences. Some of them have already been arrested or worse (Biden) Time to awake from your mental coma Dismis it all if you please. I don’t really care. But at the very least look into xrp. It might crash again soon. But come July the money will start to roll in I have spoken 😂
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matthau

South Croydon 15 May 22 8.21am

It’s a fake ww3 narrative. A battle has ensued but it’s not what you think. There is a clean up operation happening globally with human trafficking and Putin is helping. Biden lot help create the issue there years back

And whilst your all being distracted and watching Johnny depp on tik tok, the greatest transfer of wealth is happening right under your nose.

CBDCs are being put in place and will go partially live on 4 July. Xrp Algorand and xlm will go live first. This is why the regulations are in fast track process currently. Tether is next. Clean up on that front too

I mean, in what war have you ever seen so many politicians and celebs visit for camera opportunities? Wake up.

Dismiss this at your peril. I’m going to be rich come July and have been stacking my xrp at the ready

‘But if Biden family was guilty of that then why is he president?’

That’s not Biden ffs.

[Link]

Your watching a carefully played out movie where people in high positions have already been arrested and are playing along for sake of lesser sentences. Some of them have already been arrested or worse (Biden)

Time to awake from your mental coma

Dismis it all if you please. I don’t really care. But at the very least look into xrp. It might crash again soon. But come July the money will start to roll in

I have spoken

😂

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