Mr Bates vs The Post Office

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silvertop Portishead 11 Jan 24 1.39pm
Originally posted by dreamwaverider So far 2500+ victims have been paid out although the government have now pledged £600,000 to each victim. I daresay there will be thousands more to follow. Then of course there were those who the PO investigators never caught up with. Based on the fact that Horizon had access to every operating system (all of them) the compensation could become massive. In the £ billions now for sure. Fujitsu had better get ready for some hefty costs. The Horizon interns were clearly part of the issue of a totally useless system. This has got years to rumble on still. Edited by dreamwaverider (09 Jan 2024 4.26pm) If they have been convicted. Many avoided prosecution by paying the money "back" and thus losing their life savings, pensions etc. They have only been pledged £75,000.
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silvertop

Portishead 11 Jan 24 1.39pm

Originally posted by dreamwaverider

So far 2500+ victims have been paid out although the government have now pledged £600,000 to each victim. I daresay there will be thousands more to follow. Then of course there were those who the PO investigators never caught up with. Based on the fact that Horizon had access to every operating system (all of them) the compensation could become massive. In the £ billions now for sure. Fujitsu had better get ready for some hefty costs. The Horizon interns were clearly part of the issue of a totally useless system.
This has got years to rumble on still.

Edited by dreamwaverider (09 Jan 2024 4.26pm)

If they have been convicted.

Many avoided prosecution by paying the money "back" and thus losing their life savings, pensions etc. They have only been pledged £75,000.

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 11 Jan 24 2.37pm
And Head of the Investigative team into Horizon , Stephen Bradshaw, tells the Public Inquiry he wasn't technically minded. When you or I apply for a job, we would expect to submit our experience and qualifications in the field were are applying for. Government Offices, departments and their Heads have no such piffle to bother with. After generating a proper and considered figure for compensation, and wondering how 'we' are going to pay for it. First stop is Fujitsu. Next stop is getting the pay back from those proved unfit to hold office. Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells would be a start. Then Stephen Bradshaw. Now it appears staff were paid bonuses for every successful conviction of a sub-postmaster. This whole thing is a truly sickening indictment of how poor our 'elites' really are. "The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 11 Jan 24 2.37pm

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And Head of the Investigative team into Horizon , Stephen Bradshaw, tells the Public Inquiry he wasn't technically minded.

When you or I apply for a job, we would expect to submit our experience and qualifications in the field were are applying for.
Government Offices, departments and their Heads have no such piffle to bother with.

After generating a proper and considered figure for compensation, and wondering how 'we' are going to pay for it. First stop is Fujitsu.
Next stop is getting the pay back from those proved unfit to hold office. Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells would be a start.
Then Stephen Bradshaw.

Now it appears staff were paid bonuses for every successful conviction of a sub-postmaster. This whole thing is a truly sickening indictment of how poor our 'elites' really are.

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Jan 24 4.04pm
Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly And Head of the Investigative team into Horizon , Stephen Bradshaw, tells the Public Inquiry he wasn't technically minded. When you or I apply for a job, we would expect to submit our experience and qualifications in the field were are applying for. Government Offices, departments and their Heads have no such piffle to bother with. After generating a proper and considered figure for compensation, and wondering how 'we' are going to pay for it. First stop is Fujitsu. Next stop is getting the pay back from those proved unfit to hold office. Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells would be a start. Then Stephen Bradshaw. Now it appears staff were paid bonuses for every successful conviction of a sub-postmaster. This whole thing is a truly sickening indictment of how poor our 'elites' really are. Beyond the headlines, what you have here is a story of salesman using their talents to convince clueless people into buying an expensive system with tax payers money that was full of bugs. It would also be interesting to see if any other 'encouragement' was used to close the deal. After that, everyone is trying to defend their corner. If that turns into potential fraud, those involved should be prosecuted.
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Jan 24 4.04pm

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Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

And Head of the Investigative team into Horizon , Stephen Bradshaw, tells the Public Inquiry he wasn't technically minded.

Now it appears staff were paid bonuses for every successful conviction of a sub-postmaster. This whole thing is a truly sickening indictment of how poor our 'elites' really are.

Beyond the headlines, what you have here is a story of salesman using their talents to convince clueless people into buying an expensive system with tax payers money that was full of bugs.
It would also be interesting to see if any other 'encouragement' was used to close the deal.

After that, everyone is trying to defend their corner.

If that turns into potential fraud, those involved should be prosecuted.

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dreamwaverider London 11 Jan 24 6.38pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Beyond the headlines, what you have here is a story of salesman using their talents to convince clueless people into buying an expensive system with tax payers money that was full of bugs. It would also be interesting to see if any other 'encouragement' was used to close the deal. After that, everyone is trying to defend their corner. If that turns into potential fraud, those involved should be prosecuted. Surely the sub postmasters didn't have a choice. They HAD to use the Horizon system. They were effectively jumped up employees. Sounds like they got a rotten deal.
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dreamwaverider

London 11 Jan 24 6.38pm

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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

After that, everyone is trying to defend their corner.

If that turns into potential fraud, those involved should be prosecuted.

Surely the sub postmasters didn't have a choice. They HAD to use the Horizon system. They were effectively jumped up employees. Sounds like they got a rotten deal.

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dreamwaverider London 11 Jan 24 6.42pm
Originally posted by silvertop If they have been convicted. Many avoided prosecution by paying the money "back" and thus losing their life savings, pensions etc. They have only been pledged £75,000.[/quote Edited by dreamwaverider (11 Jan 2024 6.43pm)
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dreamwaverider London 11 Jan 24 6.43pm
Originally posted by silvertop If they have been convicted. Many avoided prosecution by paying the money "back" and thus losing their life savings, pensions etc. They have only been pledged £75,000. I believe 700 were convicted. Is that correct? If the others only get £75K as settlement that is simply nothing like enough when you consider how their lives have been upturned and most of them lost everything AND paid over at least £30k each.
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dreamwaverider

London 11 Jan 24 6.43pm

Originally posted by silvertop

If they have been convicted.

Many avoided prosecution by paying the money "back" and thus losing their life savings, pensions etc. They have only been pledged £75,000.

I believe 700 were convicted. Is that correct?
If the others only get £75K as settlement that is simply nothing like enough when you consider how their lives have been upturned and most of them lost everything AND paid over at least £30k each.

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silvertop Portishead 12 Jan 24 9.41am
Originally posted by dreamwaverider Surely the sub postmasters didn't have a choice. They HAD to use the Horizon system. They were effectively jumped up employees. Sounds like they got a rotten deal. I think Hrolf is talking about Fujitsu as seller and government as buyer. It is the largest non-military software system in Europe, apparently. And if size = issues, makes you sweat over what sort of system we use to defend ourselves?
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silvertop

Portishead 12 Jan 24 9.41am

Originally posted by dreamwaverider

Surely the sub postmasters didn't have a choice. They HAD to use the Horizon system. They were effectively jumped up employees. Sounds like they got a rotten deal.

I think Hrolf is talking about Fujitsu as seller and government as buyer.

It is the largest non-military software system in Europe, apparently.

And if size = issues, makes you sweat over what sort of system we use to defend ourselves?

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Palace Old Geezer Midhurst 12 Jan 24 10.04am
The more we read and hear about what really happened to those folk, the more outraged we become. I am appalled by the injustice of it all, so I can only imagine how those affected must feel. Disgusting business. Dad and I watched games standing on the muddy slope of the Holmesdale Road end. He cheered and I rattled.
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Palace Old Geezer

Midhurst 12 Jan 24 10.04am

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The more we read and hear about what really happened to those folk, the more outraged we become.

I am appalled by the injustice of it all, so I can only imagine how those affected must feel. Disgusting business.

Dad and I watched games standing on the muddy slope of the Holmesdale Road end. He cheered and I rattled.

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 16 Jan 24 6.26pm
So, Fujitso are playing the fall-guys today in the Inquiry. And are already offering compensation. I wonder, have there been any discussions with Government over who is going to take the rap, perhaps in exchange for future contracts ? "Fujitsu Europe's boss has admitted the firm has a "moral obligation" to contribute to compensation for sub-postmasters wrongly prosecuted as a result of its faulty IT software. Paul Patterson said Fujitsu gave evidence to the Post Office that was used to prosecute innocent managers. He added that the Post Office knew about "bugs and errors" in its Horizon accountancy software early on. The global chief executive of Fujitsu, Takahito Tokita, also apologised." (BBC website) [Link] "The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 16 Jan 24 6.26pm

So, Fujitso are playing the fall-guys today in the Inquiry. And are already offering compensation.
I wonder, have there been any discussions with Government over who is going to take the rap, perhaps in exchange for future contracts ?

"Fujitsu Europe's boss has admitted the firm has a "moral obligation" to contribute to compensation for sub-postmasters wrongly prosecuted as a result of its faulty IT software.
Paul Patterson said Fujitsu gave evidence to the Post Office that was used to prosecute innocent managers.
He added that the Post Office knew about "bugs and errors" in its Horizon accountancy software early on.

The global chief executive of Fujitsu, Takahito Tokita, also apologised." (BBC website)

[Link]

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Jan 24 8.04pm
Originally posted by dreamwaverider Surely the sub postmasters didn't have a choice. They HAD to use the Horizon system. They were effectively jumped up employees. Sounds like they got a rotten deal. Of course not. They were the victims of the cover up. No one wanted to take responsibility for the losses incurred by a system that was full of bugs. It seems quite unbelievable that this system was not run side by side with the original paper accounting until its efficiency could be tested and any bugs exposed. Fujitsu salesman obviously exaggerated their confidence in the system, and the Post Office took their word for it. That might not have been so bad if the problems were flagged and fixed early on, just like any software company should do. Instead, there was denial and scapegoating.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Jan 24 8.04pm

Originally posted by dreamwaverider

Surely the sub postmasters didn't have a choice. They HAD to use the Horizon system. They were effectively jumped up employees. Sounds like they got a rotten deal.

Of course not. They were the victims of the cover up.

No one wanted to take responsibility for the losses incurred by a system that was full of bugs.

It seems quite unbelievable that this system was not run side by side with the original paper accounting until its efficiency could be tested and any bugs exposed.

Fujitsu salesman obviously exaggerated their confidence in the system, and the Post Office took their word for it.
That might not have been so bad if the problems were flagged and fixed early on, just like any software company should do.
Instead, there was denial and scapegoating.

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cryrst The garden of England 16 Jan 24 9.28pm
Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly So, Fujitso are playing the fall-guys today in the Inquiry. And are already offering compensation. I wonder, have there been any discussions with Government over who is going to take the rap, perhaps in exchange for future contracts ? "Fujitsu Europe's boss has admitted the firm has a "moral obligation" to contribute to compensation for sub-postmasters wrongly prosecuted as a result of its faulty IT software. Paul Patterson said Fujitsu gave evidence to the Post Office that was used to prosecute innocent managers. He added that the Post Office knew about "bugs and errors" in its Horizon accountancy software early on. The global chief executive of Fujitsu, Takahito Tokita, also apologised." (BBC website) [Link] Bearing in mind Fujitsu are worth about $28 billion the cynic in me says a good plan for positive outcomes.
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cryrst

The garden of England 16 Jan 24 9.28pm

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

The global chief executive of Fujitsu, Takahito Tokita, also apologised." (BBC website)

[Link]

Bearing in mind Fujitsu are worth about $28 billion the cynic in me says a good plan for positive outcomes.

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steeleye20 Online Croydon 16 Jan 24 10.18pm
It's quite feasible for 700 hitherto blameless employees in different locations to conspire and defraud you. I mean it happens all the time.
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steeleye20 Online

Croydon 16 Jan 24 10.18pm

It's quite feasible for 700 hitherto blameless employees in different locations to conspire and defraud you.

I mean it happens all the time.

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