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July 23 2024 10.24am

Crystal Palace v Sheffield United Match thread

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View TheBigToePunt's Profile TheBigToePunt Flag 31 Jan 24 3.41pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Come on TBTP, what did our form look like going into that match?

Unless we are to presume that professional football players lack the initiative or have no idea whatsoever of how to get forward and fashion chances, we can't attribute that to a manager and thank or praise him for that happening.

Our game plan yesterday didn't look much beyond 'give it to Eze and Olise'. The moment they went off, we didn't look as though we'd even come close to scoring. Therefore Roy either nullified our attack through bringing on defensive replacements and/or changing the tactics to not create anything, or the responsibility for them lay with the aforementioned individuals.

If that's true then we should also conclude that professional footballers know how to defend, yet many on here blame somehow the manager for the goals we let in. Again, the players get the credit for the positives, the manager the blame for the negatives.

Of course we looked a lot worse without Eze and Olise. To suggest it could be otherwise, or that not maintaining the same level of play without them is a fault of Roy's just doesn't make sense. Only the biggest clubs can make subs to key players without dropping off.

 

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View grumpymort's Profile grumpymort Flag US/Thailand/UK 31 Jan 24 3.55pm Send a Private Message to grumpymort Add grumpymort as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

But yet so many on here wanted Richards at right-back ahead of Clyne and Ward, so if Roy was wrong to pick Richards there last night, how many of them will now say they were wrong to complain previously? Not many.

And who would you have picked in the centre of midfield ahead of Richards, given the injury to Docoure?

Schlupp is a winger. That is his preferred position. He can play in the middle or at left back, but he is a winger. If Olise, or even Rak-Sakhi had been fit, perhaps Sch;lupp would have played less, but that's not how it was.

He played Hughes there when Eze was injured. We don't have anyone else able to play there. If Roy had played a system with three defensive midfielders instead, everyone would be moaning about that.

You're right, it's not complicated. We just need to look at the circumstances as they are in real life.


You select players not only position wise but who they will be against.

This is why it's called tactics.

Richards was exposed last night because Olise was advanced forward and not fit enough to cover the distance otherwise he may have been fine with some support (he still is not a full back or wing back he is suppose to be CB)

We could have tried something different 3 CB which would make more sense.

Schlupp was being picked no matter what have you even been paying attention all season it does not appear so only this last month Schlupp has been out a few times.

We have Ayew playing left wing most of the time if Olise is out he plays on right.

Many options we have but he wont play the likes of Ahamada, Franca, Ebiowei, Ozoh from the start if lucky they get 10min.

No excuse last night why he could give likes of Franca some match time.

 


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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 24 4.11pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

And how do those players come to be in those positions? How do they get the freedom to join the attack? How do they feel confident enough to try these things, without thinking that the slightest error will cause a harmful counterattack?

The moment of skill is of course down to the individual, but the structure that permits the individual to try it is down to the manager.

There's clutching at straws, and then there's trying to credit a manager for a 25-yard screamer.

'How do they feel confident enough to try these things?' because they're professional footballers, and bloody good ones at that.

Sorry, you're trying to claim objectivity, but assigning any credit to Roy for a player slapping one in from 25 yards is the exact opposite of that.

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 24 4.17pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

I think it's very simplistic to blame Richards for the first goal - Guehi somehow ended up miles out of position tracking McBurnie 20 seconds into the game, and they then had an overload on Richards side to exploit. He could probably have got tighter as Diaz got into the box, but the damage was done when McBurnie took Guehi out of the game with his flick round the corner, and Hamer switched the play.

Look at the still as Hamer hits his pass - if Richards is any wider there, he's got a simple pass to put the central player through on goal, which is far more dangerous - Richards was correct to be narrow, and the bigger question is why we're exposed 3 v 3 20 seconds into a game...

Edited by EverybodyDannsNow (31 Jan 2024 4.18pm)

F024F26F-B087-4CCD-8BF2-58AB59D044AA.jpeg Attachment: F024F26F-B087-4CCD-8BF2-58AB59D044AA.jpeg (373.64Kb)

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 31 Jan 24 4.25pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

If that's true then we should also conclude that professional footballers know how to defend, yet many on here blame somehow the manager for the goals we let in. Again, the players get the credit for the positives, the manager the blame for the negatives.

Of course we looked a lot worse without Eze and Olise. To suggest it could be otherwise, or that not maintaining the same level of play without them is a fault of Roy's just doesn't make sense. Only the biggest clubs can make subs to key players without dropping off.

I'm not saying players do not know how to defend but they are somewhat constrained to formations and tactics the manager insists on. That's what left us vulnerable. I'd love some insight into the tactics Roy was supposedly employing that got our three goals yesterday?

Saying we looked a lot worse without Eze/Olise is different to saying we went from looking very capable of scoring to not at all without them, as we had no tactical instruction to score beyond giving it to these players to conjure something outside of such such instruction, like improvised finishes, long range strikes and volleys. It's also not acknowledging the fact the replacements for this winger and attacking midfielder were an 18 year old defensive midfield and an overweight, 31 year old Jeffrey Schlupp.

Edited by Nicholas91 (31 Jan 2024 4.26pm)

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View doombear's Profile doombear Flag Too far from Selhurst Park 31 Jan 24 4.33pm Send a Private Message to doombear Add doombear as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

If that's true then we should also conclude that professional footballers know how to defend, yet many on here blame somehow the manager for the goals we let in. Again, the players get the credit for the positives, the manager the blame for the negatives.

Of course we looked a lot worse without Eze and Olise. To suggest it could be otherwise, or that not maintaining the same level of play without them is a fault of Roy's just doesn't make sense. Only the biggest clubs can make subs to key players without dropping off.


Yes. but the issue is which substitutions the manager makes. Last night we were clearly the team on the attack when both Eze and Olise were on the field.

When they came off, Hodgson seems to have taken the decision to hand the initiative over to Sheff U by bringing on Schlupp and Ozoh. Our attacking options were clearly and drastically reduced. The inevitable happened and we just held on and scraped the win.
Did Hodgson have other options?

Of course he did! He could have brought on Edouard and Franca and adjusted the team as follows:
- switch Ayew to RW
- play Edouard at LW
- play Franca as the No 10 (which, by all accounts is his more favoured position).

That would have retained a more balanced team and enabled us to still have an attacking threat, obviously not one of the same standard as what we'd had with Olise and Eze playing, but it would IMO have given us a better chance of maintaining our front foot position. Instead, as soon as Wilder and his team saw the defensive nature of our substitutions, they gratefully accepted Hodgson's invitation to go on the offensive.

It is no coincidence that we have conceded so many late goals this season and nearly did again yesterday.

 

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View JRW2's Profile JRW2 Flag Dulwich 31 Jan 24 4.34pm Send a Private Message to JRW2 Add JRW2 as a friend

Originally posted by palace99

ok in a sort of Roy defence. Many people been asking for Richards at RB all season even after Ward got injured. Not me incidentally. Showed his limitations yesterday. But, why have a pop at Roy for doing what most people wanted.

This discussion is far too sophisticated for me to get involved, but I nevertheless feel confident in asserting that it is not the duty of the manager to do what the fans want.

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 24 4.35pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

I'm not saying players do not know how to defend but they are somewhat constrained to formations and tactics the manager insists on. That's what left us vulnerable. I'd love some insight into the tactics Roy was supposedly employing that got our three goals yesterday?

Saying we looked a lot worse without Eze/Olise is different to saying we went from looking very capable of scoring to not at all without them, as we had no tactical instruction to score beyond giving it to these players to conjure something outside of such such instruction, like improvised finishes, long range strikes and volleys. It's also not acknowledging the fact the replacements for this winger and attacking midfielder were an 18 year old defensive midfield and an overweight, 31 year old Jeffrey Schlupp.

Edited by Nicholas91 (31 Jan 2024 4.26pm)

It's not an exact science, but it's very obvious there are things in matches which are linked to management/coaching decisions, and others which are not.

Broadly, structure out of possession, patterns of play in possession to create chances, set-pieces, team selection and substitutions, are things you can attribute to a manager.

Individual mistakes and individual moments of quality are what you would not.

I make you right that we won predominantly because of the latter yesterday.

I thought the best thing Roy did yesterday was start Hughes as the 6 rather than Richards - our ability to turn over the ball and find forward passes was greatly increased as a result.

There seemed a vague plan to try and get Olise 1v1 with his man and overload the box, which paid off for the first goal - Eze even alluded to it in his post-match interview when he said he knows where he needs to be when Olise has the ball in that position.

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 24 4.37pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by doombear


Yes. but the issue is which substitutions the manager makes. Last night we were clearly the team on the attack when both Eze and Olise were on the field.

When they came off, Hodgson seems to have taken the decision to hand the initiative over to Sheff U by bringing on Schlupp and Ozoh. Our attacking options were clearly and drastically reduced. The inevitable happened and we just held on and scraped the win.
Did Hodgson have other options?

Of course he did! He could have brought on Edouard and Franca and adjusted the team as follows:
- switch Ayew to RW
- play Edouard at LW
- play Franca as the No 10 (which, by all accounts is his more favoured position).

That would have retained a more balanced team and enabled us to still have an attacking threat, obviously not one of the same standard as what we'd had with Olise and Eze playing, but it would IMO have given us a better chance of maintaining our front foot position. Instead, as soon as Wilder and his team saw the defensive nature of our substitutions, they gratefully accepted Hodgson's invitation to go on the offensive.

It is no coincidence that we have conceded so many late goals this season and nearly did again yesterday.

Completely agree - good post.

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 31 Jan 24 5.00pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

It's not an exact science, but it's very obvious there are things in matches which are linked to management/coaching decisions, and others which are not.

Broadly, structure out of possession, patterns of play in possession to create chances, set-pieces, team selection and substitutions, are things you can attribute to a manager.

Individual mistakes and individual moments of quality are what you would not.

I make you right that we won predominantly because of the latter yesterday.

I thought the best thing Roy did yesterday was start Hughes as the 6 rather than Richards - our ability to turn over the ball and find forward passes was greatly increased as a result.

There seemed a vague plan to try and get Olise 1v1 with his man and overload the box, which paid off for the first goal - Eze even alluded to it in his post-match interview when he said he knows where he needs to be when Olise has the ball in that position.

Yes, I agree with everything there. I love Hughes but still doubt him however equally make you right and thought he did very well yesterday.

On the Olise and Eze thing that may well be all Roy's doing but even if so, I wouldn't regard it as managerial genius. It may equally just be reflective of the relationship between the two and their mutual footballing understanding however.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View TheBigToePunt's Profile TheBigToePunt Flag 31 Jan 24 5.08pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

There's clutching at straws, and then there's trying to credit a manager for a 25-yard screamer.

'How do they feel confident enough to try these things?' because they're professional footballers, and bloody good ones at that.

Sorry, you're trying to claim objectivity, but assigning any credit to Roy for a player slapping one in from 25 yards is the exact opposite of that.

I was actually talking about Eze having the confidence of knowing that the team is structured in such a way that if he f***s that shot or trick, the counterattack is not going to be fatal, but I'm intrigued by your argument.

Surely, you can't be suggesting that Roy is the first manager in history whose work (not just tactics, but man management and relationship building) has no bearing on the confidence (in a mental or emotional sense) of his key attacking players?

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 24 5.13pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

I was actually talking about Eze having the confidence of knowing that the team is structured in such a way that if he f***s that shot or trick, the counterattack is not going to be fatal, but I'm intrigued by your argument.

Surely, you can't be suggesting that Roy is the first manager in history whose work (not just tactics, but man management and relationship building) has no bearing on the confidence (in a mental or emotional sense) of his key attacking players?

I think it's an enormous stretch, to the point of silliness really.

A player of Eze's quality will score goals like that all through his career, under a whole range of managers - the common denominator is Eze's talent.

 

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