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Blasts in London

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View glazedallover's Profile glazedallover Flag Allier 13 Jul 05 11.46am Send a Private Message to glazedallover Add glazedallover as a friend

I think a good read of 'Bloody Foreigners' by Michael Wilding is in order here. Britain has been the subject of immigration / invasion since time began. We are a mixture of saxon, danes, vikings, angles, celts, normans, heugenot, germans, italians, spanish etc. Daniel Defoe in 1700 wrote a poem for our new 'Dutch' King (for whom acts of terrorism are still committed) that acknowledged that a natural born Englishman did not exist.

 

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View Jimble's Profile Jimble Flag Brighton 13 Jul 05 12.43pm Send a Private Message to Jimble Add Jimble as a friend

Quote Saucy-Minx at 11 Jul 2005 11:16am

Thursday 7th July - a dark London day,
many of us helpless and can only but pray,
pray for those you love, pray for strangers,
pray for everyone who's life may be in danger.

Love, hurt, confusion and hatred,
why did peoples lives have to be dated?
not like that, not here, not now,
their lives were planned... but that wasn't how.

Love is sent from everyone at this time,
Anger's on hold, but they'll pay for this crime,
To those who committed this atrocious sin,
Our 4 words to you are simply "YOU WILL NOT WIN!"

Edited by Saucy-Minx (11 Jul 2005 11:16am)


Well put Saucy.

Here is a little tune I wrote Friday morning, not much but it kind of sums up the empty feeling of Thursday for me.

 


[Link]

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RICKY Flag Essex 13 Jul 05 1.04pm

Having just watched the news it disgusts me that these appalling acts have been carried out by British citizens. These 4 men grew up in this country, went to British schools and they repay us in this terrible way.

One of them worked with disabled children but then went and killed innocent people which I just can't work out. One of the other guys has an 8 month old child yet is prepared to kill innocent people, I just don't understand the logic? They pretend to be kind ordinary everyday people yet really that is all for show and they are scum. It must have come as a terrible shock to those people in Leeds who knew them as ordinary people, imagine living yards away from a house where these terrible events are being planned and prepared?

I don't know what to think anymore,I am just so angry that they have the audacity to do this to their fellow Britons when this country has giving them a better standard of living they would have had if they had been in their ancestors homeland ie P@kistan.

Those clerics who preach all this hatred should be kicked out and sent back to the Middle East. In Watford they have asked for a second mosque to be built, I hope the council turn it down. Slate me for that if you want but I reckon the majority of the public would agree with me.

 

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 13 Jul 05 1.19pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

I don't really know how to put this without sounding callous, but I'm relieved that in the list of those victims identified today are a few asians, at least one of whom was a muslim. Obviously, I'm gutted for the loss of ALL the lives, but in a way, I think the broad spectrum of people murdered in this way can be used to stifle some of the reaction of distrust against the asian and muslim communities in this country. I'm far from being 'PC', and lean way further right than left in my politics, but if we are to defeat this extremist lunacy, we need to make sure that ALL the people in this country, regardless of ethnic origin, feel a part of the battle. We're all in this together - if you see what I mean.

It's also a bit of a blow to any PR the extremist organisations behind this hoped to achieve - killing 'westerners' would be perceived as much more acceptable than killing muslim brothers and sisters.

Hope my meaning comes across, just can't think how better to put it.

The fact that these 'people' were British born and bred is neither here nor there to me - they were extremist loonies, just as that bloke who nail-bombed the Admiral Duncan pub and Brixton a few years ago was.

 

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 13 Jul 05 1.24pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Quote RICKY at 13 Jul 2005 1:04pm

Those clerics who preach all this hatred should be kicked out and sent back to the Middle East. In Watford they have asked for a second mosque to be built, I hope the council turn it down. Slate me for that if you want but I reckon the majority of the public would agree with me.

I won't slate you for it, as I completely understand the sentiment, but I hope the pulic would not agree (at least when the anger has subsided a bit.

I have no problem with building mosques, and the muslim community in general. What I WOULD like to see is any mosque consistently allowing the spouting of hatred (like Finsbury, for instance) shut down and torn down! And that should apply to any 'community' building, be it mosque, church, synagogue, or public bleeding library.

You're dead right about the clerics though - sling the extremist hate-mongerers amongst them out immediately.

 

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View cpfc-rjd's Profile cpfc-rjd Flag Beckenham and the BBS 13 Jul 05 1.26pm Send a Private Message to cpfc-rjd Add cpfc-rjd as a friend

The lunatics who did this don't care about killing Muslims. They kill Muslims every day in Iraq.

The fact that they are British IS important. It means that we cannot hope to defeat these scum by controlling our borders alone. We are faced with the enemy within. We now have citizens who are so warped and depraved that they are prepared to kill ordinary people. Theses animals and those who support or condone them have no place in our society.

Reading the paper today with the profiles of the dead just makes me more and more angry. What a f***ing pointless waste of lives. I’m sick of this ‘let’s get on with our lives bollocks. Their loved ones can’t get on with their lives.

 


"Her very Lowness with her head in a sling
I'm truly sorry but it sounds like a wonderful thing"

NEITHER LEFT OR RIGHT BUT OUT IN FRONT

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View cpfc-rjd's Profile cpfc-rjd Flag Beckenham and the BBS 13 Jul 05 1.33pm Send a Private Message to cpfc-rjd Add cpfc-rjd as a friend

I know it can be a pain in the arse to post long articles but this is exactly how I feel:


Four pathetic young bombers
ALICE MILES

NOW THE real shock. The first suicide bombing to occur in Western Europe — and not one, but four of them. This takes terror in Britain into a new dimension.

And yet, my instinct is the same as it was before learning that these were not just “ordinary” bombers, but suicides. And the instinct is even stronger now: do not glamorise them. I see four pathetic young men, feeble manifestations of confused masculinity, too spineless to negotiate the 21st century. Unemployed? Useless? Do something that makes you feel big. But anyone can make a bomb and take it on to the Tube. It is the work of an instant and of a deluded idiot. We should not glamorise them, and any who might follow them. We must not dignify them with fear.

I see their poor mothers, too, wondering, as the parade of missing and dead filled our television screens, where their sons had got to. And I ask those mothers: why did you not know what was happening to your sons? I ask their fathers, too, and their community leaders who allow such bile to fester in communities impenetrable to outsiders and kept separate from mainstream British society: do you see what you have done?
And then I ask my fellow commuters: are we afraid now?

The aftermath of Thursday’s bombing showed London at its best and by God I was proud of it; proud of the calm and the silence and, above all, of people’s determination to cling to normality. I heard polite attempts to cancel appointments, apologies at missed meetings, efforts not to further inconvenience anyone. People were relentlessly practical. We left the tears and the panic to those out of town, or overseas; those irritating e-mails from people you hadn’t seen for years — are you OK? Is so-and-so all right? Do you think she was caught up in it? It was hysterical and it didn’t help.
There has always been danger on the Underground. As someone who grew up in London, to me the Tube has long represented both freedom and threat. Freedom, because it led to everywhere. Threat, because there was always the flasher, the potential rapist or the mugger; at journey’s end, the IRA bomber. The difference since 9/11 has been the sense of danger from a bomb on the Tube itself. It lurks at the back of one’s mind on almost every journey. It lurked on July 6. It lurked yesterday. It will lurk again today. You calibrate the threat, and you make your choice. For most Londoners, that means getting on the Tube.

Yesterday morning I watched, along with my fellow passengers, the comers and goers at each station. I checked sideways for packages on the floor. Occasionally people caught one another’s eye and smiled. No one but a nutter smiles on the Tube, as a rule; since July 7 we all do. Ruefully, perhaps, but a smile nonetheless. It makes me even prouder. Defeat us? You have united us. But today I imagine we shall stop smiling at one another. No more looking for reassurance in a stranger: do not look young and Asian on the Tube today.

On Monday Tony Blair painted us ordinary Londoners as heroic: “Millions of people are coming to work with a steely determination that is genuinely remarkable.” It isn’t remarkable. Nobody feels remarkable. It is just life. It is ordinary. People have jobs and they must turn up for them. It is absolutely normal.
And normality is what we need now. Normality shows that life goes on; most importantly, it reveals to other potential bombers that they cannot change anything this way.

Yet normality is hard to carry on when those in authority keep raking through the rubble. The police leak details of hidden horrors; we are invited to imagine the scene underground at King’s Cross, in the sweat and the stench. Gruesome hints about the difficulty of identifying bodies spattered across track and tunnel are sharply illustrated by the collection of a toothbrush, for DNA, from a potential victim’s relative. A distraught mother seeking her missing son is given an entire page in the Daily Mail to bemoan “rivers of blood . . . death in the morning, people going to find their livelihood, death in the noontime in the highways and streets”. Mr Blair invites grim imaginings by telling MPs “the effect of a bomb is to make identification sometimes very, very hard and harrowing”. The Culture Secretary rushes to open a Garden of Remembrance. The Prime Minister announces a Europe-wide two-minute silence and the Queen promises to attend a memorial service.

And all this risks glamorising the work of four pathetic young men, and recruiting others to their “cause”. The shock of the blasts tore lives apart, yes, but they were not, for most of us, our lives. We are not grieving, as the friends and families of the bereaved grieve. Nothing will ever fill for them the void left by July 7, 2005. Public mourning will not bring them back; public grieving belittles their grief.

It is now clear that there is something constructive that the politicians can do. Forget the mourning, and tear into those Muslim ghettos instead. Force them to open up. Make the imams answer. Tell them to let their women speak, as they have been prevented from doing until now. We have done softly, softly. We have pandered to fears about religious hatred. We have listened with utmost sympathy to their concerns.
No one should stigmatise any community, the police said yesterday. But those bombers have stigmatised the communities that made them, and we should spare a thought for the devastation wrought on those communities; but then we should insist that they cannot continue in a state of alienation from the rest of society. That is a challenge for them, and for all of us. They, too, must become ordinary.

Edited by cpfc-rjd (13 Jul 2005 1:35pm)

 


"Her very Lowness with her head in a sling
I'm truly sorry but it sounds like a wonderful thing"

NEITHER LEFT OR RIGHT BUT OUT IN FRONT

[Link]

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View eulalio's Profile eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 13 Jul 05 1.51pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

I think Stef's post above is in the wrong thread? ;-)

All the ones below that, however, make excellent points. Especially this:

Quote if we are to defeat this extremist lunacy, we need to make sure that ALL the people in this country, regardless of ethnic origin, feel a part of the battle. We're all in this together

Hear hear mate. Hear hear.

 

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View JollyStef's Profile JollyStef 13 Jul 05 2.19pm Send a Private Message to JollyStef Add JollyStef as a friend

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 13 Jul 2005 1:51pm

I think Stef's post above is in the wrong thread? ;-)

No it's not, just something NickinOx said .. that's all


Edited by JollyStef (13 Jul 2005 2:20pm)

 


finished

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 13 Jul 05 2.51pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

In no particular order. HMHS.

3. Regarding the figures. Independent academic studies were carried out in the USA and elsewhere for both the Afghan war and Iraq. I cannot remember the best one from the USA (it was a lesser known college), but a team of researchers went into Afghanistan to compile a count. A current count that is continuous and (criticised for being anti-American, though it seems fairly reasonable to me) is [Link]

Thay are now claiming between 22787 and 25814 civilians have been killed. The figures given last year, at the time of the 100,000 report, were about 13-15,000 civilians killed (if I remember correctly). Considering the upsurge in violence since the middle of last year that sounds about right.

1. Regarding the Geneva conventions and the treatment of prisoners. I have made it quite clear that the prisiners should be treated humanely. The prisoner do fall into a hole in international law. Thus what should be done with them? If as is claimed on both sides this is a war, then the USA has the right to detain them for the duration.

I agree that a number of prisoners have been incredibly poorly treated. However, the people we are discussing have never conformed to the laws of war, the Geneva convention, etc. It is also unlikely, given their consistent behaviour, that it will ever really matter to the hard core of them if we do treat their prisoners poorly or not.
However, I think that you have a point if you are discussing moderate people who might shift to extremism. In that case, it is important to treat the prisoners humanely (all moral arguments aside) even if it is only from pure long-term self- interest.

To go on to insinuate that they are innocent people being tortured without reason is stretching the point past logical common sense. Not that that would justify torture in my opinion. Innocent people like yourself are not that likely to end up in Abu-Ghraib or Guantanamo!

Plus, American and British soldiers have already been convicted and jailed for the poor treatment of prisoners. If we are comparing like with like, then we would be seeing the same from the extremists. Thus there is a difference between the moral ground of the two sides and that difference needs to be further widened.

So, again I ask what are we to do with them?

2. You brought up the UN, I just answered your point. If the UN is as bad as you say then why use its legitimacy as an argument? The UN was irrelevant well before Dubya, just look at Srebrenica in 1995! The USA cannot in any way be accused of engineering that, it was a UN and Dutch f*** up.

Again, what should replace it, and who is going to provide the military power to back it up? Europe is the only place wealthy enough to do this, yet most European countries complain about American military power but are cutting their defence spending! How can Europe provide an alternative to American power when it is so hypocritical.

4. Regarding Saddam's support of terrorism. You claimed he had no links to terrorism, I pointed out he did.

Regarding the point by Faraway: Cromwell's behaviour in Ireland, has been used as an excuse just as the Crusades have. Don't you think that is stretching ideas ridiculously far? We could easliy turn the rhetoric around and argue that christians were driven out of much of the Middle East, Turkey, North Africa, parts ofthe Southern Caucasus, parts of the Balkans and Spain until the Reconquista finished in 1492. Largely by muslims. How would that help either side and the argument is mostly redundant.

Edited by NickinOX (13 Jul 2005 2:52pm)

 

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 13 Jul 05 3.00pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

Quote if we are to defeat this extremist lunacy, we need to make sure that ALL the people in this country, regardless of ethnic origin, feel a part of the battle. We're all in this together

I think it is excellently put and I have made a point similar to this before (though not quite as well). It also means that communities new to Britain will probably have to reach further to join hands. That is a fact of life for more recent immigrants, as I have discovered after emigrating and living overseas and not just in the USA.


 


If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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View eulalio's Profile eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 13 Jul 05 3.32pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

Apologies Stef, my error.

Cheers NickinOX, great stuff. I suspected the Iraq Body Count site was the one you referred to, as it is basically the only organisation bothered to count the Iraqi dead!

Just briefly, you are of course spot on that Al Q and chums aren't as nice as us as regards Geneva etc. Unarguably true. I don't have an answer to your question about what we do with them, all I can say is that I believe it's counterproductive in both the short and long term to sink to their level. Regarding the innocence or otherwise of Gitmo detainees, surely that's for the courts to decide? That's what we have due process for.

Re the UN, that's the big question for the 21st century. What to replace it with. A world government might be a start... one with proper voting rights for all people, including those in Muslim dictatorships.

Finally, your point about Cromwell. Bang on.

 

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