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Blasts in London

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 13 Jul 05 3.43pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

If they are illegal combatants (i.e. prisoners of war without a uniform, which the vast majority appear to be) then they do not need to be put on trial, they can be held until hostilities end and the situation is secure. Ergo, almost indefinitely. Not sure that is best either.

As for a world government, nice idea but I do not think that it could work. At least not for a long, long time. National interests are still much too important for almost all states.

I think that if the UN were reformed with set provisions for military force structure and expenditure put in place, it would be salvageable. However, the UN is corrupt and its internal mechanisms need a complete overhaul before anything useful will ever really come of it in terms of international security.

The UN might learn a lot from the structure of NATO. Though that is only a genuine force because of the US logistic strength. Who knows.

Edited by NickinOX (13 Jul 2005 3:50pm)

 


If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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View eulalio's Profile eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 13 Jul 05 3.49pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

It's asking for trouble mate. Honestly. Just look at the effect Gitmo has in the Arab world - only Palestine is a bigger issue with them now.

We (UK/US) made a major error there. Personally I blame Rummy, his decisions always were dodgy at best.

It will take many many years to repair the West's image after these torture scandals, and a few trials of lowly soldiers won't be enough. It wouldn't be for me, if things were the other way around.

We have to be SEEN to be even cleaner than we actually are. We have to give them no excuses.

In the meantime if we continue to treat them as sub-human, then we can only expect to receive the same in return, right or wrong. I'm sure our own bible has something about eyes and teeth.

 

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 13 Jul 05 3.55pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

As I have said before, it is the moderates we need to please and the current situation is not helping. In that sense I would agree with you. But the extremists have to be dealt with and if they have been caught, then I can see no other way of dealing with them. If a viable alternative could be found it would do wonders for the western powers.

The only real alternative is to return them to their home countries. However, there are two main problems with this: first they may well be let go, which is absolutely the last thing needed with the most extreme amongst them; or they will be tortured and murdered by their own governments. Not really an option either, even if it does appeal a bit.

Edited by NickinOX (13 Jul 2005 4:40pm)

 


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View tome's Profile tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 13 Jul 05 4.02pm Send a Private Message to tome Add tome as a friend

Quote laddo at 07 Jul 2005 6:55pm
Some of the anti-muslim s**t is a disgrace. I'm angry, but not just with the terrorists. I'm angry that our government has put us in the firing line with attacking Iraq. I'm angry that Iraqi civilians have to live with this everyday due to the actions of our government. I'm angry that through days like this the Americans and other western governments will use this as an excuse to kill other innocent people. I'm angry that through people's anger the real issues aren't being addressed, and never will until people educate themselves.

I'd love all those who have had a knee-jerk, anti-muslim reaction, to go to the Gaza Strip and see why some muslims are pissed off. The killing of innocent people of any race is a disgrace, and fundamentalist religious groups are evil. But our government have fuelled the flames of hatred and now we're living with the consequences.


This is a top post, and the one which most closely resembles my own anger.

We cannot delude ourselves that our suffering is somehow more virtuous or deserving of sympathy that that caused by wanton destruction anywhere else in the world. Today, 39 women and children were believed to have been burnt to death in their village in Congo. Not that a lot of people would notice here. My point is not to denigrate the suffering in London, just to put it in perspective.

We must unite across border against the uttere senselessness of murder on such epic scales, whoever it's done by and against.

 


A one and a two...

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View eulalio's Profile eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 13 Jul 05 4.31pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

Quote tome at 13 Jul 2005 4:02pm

Quote laddo at 07 Jul 2005 6:55pm
Some of the anti-muslim s**t is a disgrace. I'm angry, but not just with the terrorists. I'm angry that our government has put us in the firing line with attacking Iraq. I'm angry that Iraqi civilians have to live with this everyday due to the actions of our government. I'm angry that through days like this the Americans and other western governments will use this as an excuse to kill other innocent people. I'm angry that through people's anger the real issues aren't being addressed, and never will until people educate themselves.

I'd love all those who have had a knee-jerk, anti-muslim reaction, to go to the Gaza Strip and see why some muslims are pissed off. The killing of innocent people of any race is a disgrace, and fundamentalist religious groups are evil. But our government have fuelled the flames of hatred and now we're living with the consequences.


This is a top post, and the one which most closely resembles my own anger.

We cannot delude ourselves that our suffering is somehow more virtuous or deserving of sympathy that that caused by wanton destruction anywhere else in the world. Today, 39 women and children were believed to have been burnt to death in their village in Congo. Not that a lot of people would notice here. My point is not to denigrate the suffering in London, just to put it in perspective.

We must unite across border against the uttere senselessness of murder on such epic scales, whoever it's done by and against.

Well if anyone is looking for posts to print off and pin up on the wall, these two are about as good as you'll get, imho.


 


face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno

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View Petealiator's Profile Petealiator Flag 1066 Country! 13 Jul 05 4.33pm Send a Private Message to Petealiator Add Petealiator as a friend

Just in case anyone believes that I'm really the sick, demented, homosexual, Hitler-worshipping, not really a man at all, weirdo he accuses me of being, here's the absolute basis of my political beliefs:

I believe that multiculturalism on a small scale is no bad thing for any nation, it enriches the indigenous culture and adds depth to it, but if the scale is kept small, the indigenous culture and traditions are preserved and remain in tact, the indigenous people will feel no threat from the small communities and harmony will prevail. Or far better than ‘sticking together’ in small comunities, recreating their own way of life on British soil, would be if the small communities integrated with the indigenous population.
Multiculturalism on such a massive scale as we have in Britain today, whole cities given over to non-indigenous people is wrong and it just does not work, and what we're seeing now along with the race riots (notably in Leeds) we've already had is merely adding weight to my belief. I am a nationalist, not a globalist, I don’t want to see the world turned into one big melting pot, I want all the (non-barbaric) nations and cultures of the world preserved and cherished so they can flourish. I believe the indigenous race of Britain is suffering the sickness of non-identity, there is no pride anymore in our young, most couldn’t even tell you who Lord Nelson was. I believe that multiculturalism on the scale as we have in Britain today does nothing but harm to all involved. There are no winners.

What's the answer then? Aint got a clue (there's one for worm to quote and make a pithy little comment about), I suppose it's just too late, there is no answer, Britain is f***ed. If you think Thursday was bad, get used to it, we’re gonna see worse and we’re gonna see it more and more often. Happy days!

Edited by Moose (19 Jul 2005 9:37am)

 


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View eulalio's Profile eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 13 Jul 05 4.50pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

Gosh. Quite a tirade for someone who doesn't care.

Your beliefs are noted. But if you think "whole cities [have been] given over to non-indigenous people" you really ought to visit them first. What an utter load of bullsh!t. There's exaggeration, and then there's just talking sh!t. Way to cross the line Pete. FYI there is not one city in the UK which is less than 50% white. Not one.

One question arises from the above, the rest not being worth responding to. Which nations and cultures are "non-barbaric" and which are barbaric, by your criteria?

Off now to cry about not being invited for a drink.

 


face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno

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Balham Burner Flag 13 Jul 05 4.53pm

I believe that the UK is composed of 93% "white" people.

 

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View eulalio's Profile eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 13 Jul 05 4.56pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

And yet some people have enormous difficulties dealing with that other 7% don't they.

 


face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 13 Jul 05 5.02pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

Quote tome at 13 Jul 2005 4:02pm

Quote laddo at 07 Jul 2005 6:55pm
Some of the anti-muslim s**t is a disgrace. I'm angry, but not just with the terrorists. I'm angry that our government has put us in the firing line with attacking Iraq. I'm angry that Iraqi civilians have to live with this everyday due to the actions of our government. I'm angry that through days like this the Americans and other western governments will use this as an excuse to kill other innocent people. I'm angry that through people's anger the real issues aren't being addressed, and never will until people educate themselves.

I'd love all those who have had a knee-jerk, anti-muslim reaction, to go to the Gaza Strip and see why some muslims are pissed off. The killing of innocent people of any race is a disgrace, and fundamentalist religious groups are evil. But our government have fuelled the flames of hatred and now we're living with the consequences.


This is a top post, and the one which most closely resembles my own anger.

We cannot delude ourselves that our suffering is somehow more virtuous or deserving of sympathy that that caused by wanton destruction anywhere else in the world. Today, 39 women and children were believed to have been burnt to death in their village in Congo. Not that a lot of people would notice here. My point is not to denigrate the suffering in London, just to put it in perspective.

We must unite across border against the uttere senselessness of murder on such epic scales, whoever it's done by and against.

If Iraq is the key point, how does he explain the 220 Kenyans and others murdered before 9/11.

If you check the "would you kill them" topic, LADDO was unable to point out why Iraq made us vulnerable. Indeed, he was unable to provide valid coherent reasons for a number of things he said. We were in the firing line well before Iraq. The war in Iraq has indeed increased the risk, but it did not create it as has been stated in this quote. Thus the quote is either untruthful or only partially so.

The world is a s***ty place, but it does not help when people try to remove the blame for terrorist attacks from non-state actors, who are illegitimate users of violence. That only serves to perpetuate the problem.



 


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View tome's Profile tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 13 Jul 05 5.18pm Send a Private Message to tome Add tome as a friend

Whatever you make of halfmanhalfslug and Petealiator, they certainly stir things up.

First up, Pete, I see where you coming from - the position of a cultural conservative. You appear to want to keep things as they were. However the idea that we can stop the advance of both people and cultures is a non - starter in my view. Cultures have never been static - they are just evolving faster now due to the increased mobility of people on a global scale. We cannot go back to the past, we cannot pause or rewind a process that remains ongoing. And rightly so, I think. Migration of all types adds massively to the experience of living in a reciever country. You seem worried about the 'swamping' and globalisation of this country by foreign elements - but surely it'd be a whole lot more uniform and stale if it wasn't for that?

Diversity is to be celebrated.

NickinOX, that doesn't detract from what he's said here. A degree of risk is inevitable in everything - the fact that we invaded Iraq in a manifestation of pre - emptive aggression creates a whole series of greater risks following and linked to the deaths and insurgency. Imagine you are an Iraqi. War always creates bitterness, and when you set about creating enemies, it's more likely that you will get attacked in return.

Yes, it's still the fault of those that did it. But we'd significantly reduce the risk if we were to look at why it is that people wish to attack us. Look at it from their point of view. If I was a Palestinian, an Uzbek or a Saudi, I'd be pretty f***ing angry.

 


A one and a two...

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 13 Jul 05 5.27pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

Quote tome at 13 Jul 2005 5:18pm
NickinOX, that doesn't detract from what he's said here. A degree of risk is inevitable in everything - the fact that we invaded Iraq in a manifestation of pre - emptive aggression creates a whole series of greater risks following and linked to the deaths and insurgency. Imagine you are an Iraqi. War always creates bitterness, and when you set about creating enemies, it's more likely that you will get attacked in return.

Yes, it's still the fault of those that did it. But we'd significantly reduce the risk if we were to look at why it is that people wish to attack us. Look at it from their point of view. If I was a Palestinian, an Uzbek or a Saudi, I'd be pretty f***ing angry.

But, he claimed and you agreed, that Iraq put us in the firing line. That is not true, as we were already in the firing line. Though I do agree it did increase the risk.

Any action we do take, will in all likelihood increase our risk in the short term. That makes complete sense. Thus the logic is we should take no action.

Does that mean you think we should take no action? Personally, I think that would be suicide.


 


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