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Blasts in London

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 15 Jul 05 6.00pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Quote Oliver at 15 Jul 2005 5:08pm
- Face it Galloway is innocent of the charges laid before him by the US Senate Committee. Why would he know if his “Iraqi business friends” had benefited from the oil for food programme?

- The war in Iraq increased the likelihood of UK being attacked.

- Massive swing in the vote form a very safe Labour seat to the anti war party. The death threats where handed out by an extremist Islamic group opposed to democratic process and as such all candidates got them.

- You are wrong re aid. Israel is the largest recipient and most of the aid is military.
Check these websites
[Link]
[Link]
[Link]

- So what do you think is their main motivation?
Edited by Oliver (15 Jul 2005 5:09pm)


I never claimed Galloway was guilty. Why you feel you need to insinuate that I did is beyond me. I just stated that he refused to answer an important question regarding the oil for food programme. If he is innocent as you claim; a simple "I do not know" would have sufficed. However, he repeatedly dodged the question. What does that tell you about his honesty?

Further, you ignored my point about Galloway and Rumsfeld. Galloway lied then, why should we believe him now? If he is willing to lie in front of a formal legal hearing whilst spouting politics, what message does that send about him?

I never claimed there was not a massive swing in the vote in Bethnal Green. I stated that it was an error to call the election a 'landslide' as was claimed in another post. You have still not answered that point. How can you call a very tight election, a landslide?

Add up the figures you provided in the websites you linked in.

Israel 2.56bn (I stated 3bn USD, thus I was much closer than your single billion)
Egypt 1.835bn (I had guesstimated previously 2bn) So not too far off again.

Jordan alone receives 250m USD plus another 185m USD in military aid. The other muslim states are not completely listed so it is difficult to tell. But when you consider Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi, Kuwait, Turkey, and Yemen all receive American money then I do not think my assertion that Muslim states get more than Israel is likely to be drastically wrong. Perhaps the figures only balance out, or Israel is slightly ahead. So what? Muslim states in the Middle East and elsewhere, receive huge amounts of aid from the west as do christian and jewish states. What point are you trying to make? If you wish to strongly assert that Israel gets more money, I am happy to concede, as the argument is largely irrelevant.

According to the figures you provided, most of Israel money is not military spending. Check the figures you provided, because you put forward an untruth to further your point.

You make a point about Israel, I have never tried to deny they get money so why you feel that is important, I do not know.

Why do you ignore the new money, I mentioned, put forward by America and the G8 3.25bn USD?

You have still not answered my point about the hundreds of millions given to the Palestinian authority that vanished into private bank accounts. That is an issue that does need to be addressed. Yet you have ignored it.

Neither have you backed up your assertion that most attacks occurred against American targets. This is the second clear untruth you have used to further your arguments. Either properly challenge the validity of something, as you tried to do with the figures you provided, acknowledge that you were incorrect or concede.

I have stated more than once, that the war in Iraq did increase the likelihood of attacks, but was not the sole reason for their occurrance. Why do you feel the need to keep repeating yourself, when it is clear that you have been answered. I assume that there is little else to your argument.

Motivation. You tell me. They frequently change their demands. It started out as the removal of western influence from Sadi Arabia. This was an issue in the 70's and 80's. Often Al-Qaida affiliates cliam to want the total destruction of the west and have carried out attacks on many western and other peoples. Sometimes they try and localise an argument. Who knows, it is all political grandstanding to try to provide the illegitimate with legitimacy.

Answer this: How can a British person with all the democratic rights therein genuinely claim that murdering innocent British civilians in London is just, because of a war in a far off land that happens to involve some co-religionists? Surely, if they genuinely felt sympathy they could have voted or gone to Iraq and killed the so-called oppressors. Instead, and this is consistent with all Al-Quaida affiliates, they choose to target innocent civilians because they are ideologically and morally bankrupt.


Edited by NickinOX (15 Jul 2005 11:41pm)

 


If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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View tome's Profile tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 16 Jul 05 11.18am Send a Private Message to tome Add tome as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Eh, NickinOX on the warpath once again.

One thing I notice - you claim that the money is irrelevent, but if you consider that money given to a small state such as Israel is more or roughly equal to the money spread around at least half a dozen muslim states, does this not strike you as out of kilter?

The whole Israeli issue is linked so tightly with the USA because the U.S. has the largest Jewish population on the planet - self defined. Israel is not far behind. The money and political backing has allowed Israel to suppress the Palestinians. Yes, both sides can be indicted, but if your country was annexed, I'm sure you would fight back desperately.


And why is it I've still only had one response to my post - and nowt to do with the points. Where are you, Cucking, Petealiator, reborn? Let's be having ya!

Maybe that's why halfmanhalfslug peppers his posts with vitriol - he'll get a response.

 


A one and a two...

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 16 Jul 05 5.15pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Quote tome at 16 Jul 2005 11:18am

Eh, NickinOX on the warpath once again.

One thing I notice - you claim that the money is irrelevent, but if you consider that money given to a small state such as Israel is more or roughly equal to the money spread around at least half a dozen muslim states, does this not strike you as out of kilter?

The whole Israeli issue is linked so tightly with the USA because the U.S. has the largest Jewish population on the planet - self defined. Israel is not far behind. The money and political backing has allowed Israel to suppress the Palestinians. Yes, both sides can be indicted, but if your country was annexed, I'm sure you would fight back desperately.

And why is it I've still only had one response to my post - and nowt to do with the points. Where are you, Cucking, Petealiator, reborn? Let's be having ya!

Maybe that's why halfmanhalfslug peppers his posts with vitriol - he'll get a response.

Perhaps you have only received a reply from one person because you do not address most of the points raised in argument with you?

How am I on the warpath? And I do wish you would actually answer some of the questions I have posed, as I attempt to do with your posts rather than try to provoke a response; re your comments about reborn, pete and HMHS.

According to the BBC, it is no longer correct that America has the largest Jewish poplulation, it is now Israel. A great deal of the money is spent on security, but they would not need to spend that much if Palestinians were not regularly blowing themselves up on buses full of schoolchildren. The same could be said for the other side. This is not a one side is good the other bad situation, however much you seem to want it to be.

Your points about money were irrelevant until you actually bothered to explain why you thought the money issue was relevant. Just blurting out numbers or ideas without putting them into any kind of context is a waste of time. So why bother?

Why is the money issue out of kilter? Why should America not give money to whom it wishes, and in amounts it wants to? France, Britain, Germany etc. etc., all give out varying degrees of aid. France gives hundreds of millions to Chad and Algeria and much less to their neighbours (mostly for arms sales and training). Why, because of the unstable security situation there which has largely been caused by external factors. Much like in Israel (where the amount of money given to the Israeli and Arab protagonists was drawn up and agreed by all sides in the late 1970's in the Peace accords). Thus I ask again, if all sides agreed to this (which they did), why do you think it is a problem?

The Palestinians did not have their state annexed as you indicate. They have never had an independent state, so how could it have been annexed? The people of that region were subjugated by the Ottoman empire for 5-600 years, and before that they were dominated by the Byzantines and Romans before them. They have not been even close to being independent since the tribes of Israel were in charge of the place about 2700 years ago. The West Bank was taken over from Jordan, not Palestine and the Golan heights were annexed from Syria. The Gaza strip was part of Egypt and has never been annexed (as far as I am aware, though I am by no means certain).

Edited by NickinOX (16 Jul 2005 5:17pm)

 


If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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View Mr Statto's Profile Mr Statto Flag Ifield 16 Jul 05 6.27pm Send a Private Message to Mr Statto Add Mr Statto as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

NickinOX, you may be being a little harsh on Oliver's use of statistics there. It is a feature I've noticed quite frequently on this site that amounts of money often disappear (I'll try an example £3m)

OK, that didn't prove my point - I'll try m

Edited by Mr Statto (16 Jul 2005 6:28pm)

There you go - that should have been three million dollars, but the combination of a dollar sign followed by a number just vanishes for some reason

Edited by Mr Statto (16 Jul 2005 6:29pm)

 


That's just the ramblings of a madman

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 16 Jul 05 7.08pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Perhaps I was too harsh. However, what I mainly criticised him for was his use statistics where he had provided the web addresses and still got the numbers wrong.

That's why I normally write 3m USD.

 

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View reborn's Profile reborn 18 Jul 05 1.34am Send a Private Message to reborn Add reborn as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

I dont disagree with you, Israel is an artificial state propped up by US subsidies.

We will never have peace until the us makes the israelis compromise.

Quote tome at 16 Jul 2005 11:18am

Eh, NickinOX on the warpath once again.

One thing I notice - you claim that the money is irrelevent, but if you consider that money given to a small state such as Israel is more or roughly equal to the money spread around at least half a dozen muslim states, does this not strike you as out of kilter?

The whole Israeli issue is linked so tightly with the USA because the U.S. has the largest Jewish population on the planet - self defined. Israel is not far behind. The money and political backing has allowed Israel to suppress the Palestinians. Yes, both sides can be indicted, but if your country was annexed, I'm sure you would fight back desperately.


And why is it I've still only had one response to my post - and nowt to do with the points. Where are you, Cucking, Petealiator, reborn? Let's be having ya!

Maybe that's why halfmanhalfslug peppers his posts with vitriol - he'll get a response.


 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 18 Jul 05 6.53am Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Quote reborn at 18 Jul 2005 1:34am
I dont disagree with you, Israel is an artificial state propped up by US subsidies.

We will never have peace until the us makes the israelis compromise.

I would have to agree that Israel too needs to compromise. However, under the Dayton Peace plan drawn up with Clinton and Barak Israel offered the Palestinians almost everything that they had asked for. It was completely rejected by Arafat. What more should Israel do?

With Abbas in charge I do see hope, but only if he can reign in the militants. Even the BBC has been talking about the latest round of violence being started by Hamas, who spent several days firing rockets into Israel before there was an Israeli response. Now that is almost unheard of, especially when talking about Sharon.

Regarding Israel's legitimacy; it is accepted in the UN. Even Abbas acepts its legitimacy to exist. Anyway, almost all states were formed as the result of political violence of some sort, Israel is no different.

Yes it is propped up with subsidies, as is the Palestinian pseudo state. However, much of that money comes from the peace agreement signed with Egypt as a reward to both sides for keeping the peace between them.

 

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View eulalio's Profile eulalio Flag Girls just wanna have Funt 18 Jul 05 12.29pm Send a Private Message to eulalio Add eulalio as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

I've thought a lot over the weekend about what to write about the attacks, Iraq, etc - and decided in the end that it is all best left unsaid. Other far more intellectual people than I are now publicly making the obvious connection between 7/7 and Iraq, and given my history on this board their statements are likely to be taken a lot more willingly than mine!

I and several others have seriously overstepped the mark on occasion and this is simply not acceptable any more. What I have found myself typing sometimes because of how wound-up I get with these mindless threats and insults has shocked me. It stops here and now. I have better things to do with my life, and I am sure that applies to Pete, Reborn, etc just as much. Something happened over the weekend (not terror related, but very serious to me - I won't go into it because I'll only get accused of milking it again) that made me see this childish name-calling in its proper perspective. I'm bored with it now and so I concede defeat, and will leave the board and the debate to the rest of you.

Seriously, I reckon Pete and I have more in common than either of us is prepared to admit. Pete, if I ever bump into you next time I sneak off to a match I'll come and say hello and shake your hand. Hopefully we can take the p!ss out of eachother over a few pints, although I am aware you have your own preferred method of conflict resolution in mind. Whatever.

I won't be back - no, I mean I really won't be back, not just saying so in a huff and then popping back 2 days later. And that includes under different usernames.

I may ask the Mods to ban me actually, that might be an idea.

I'll leave you with just one word:

Eagles.

Edited by Moose (19 Jul 2005 9:58am)

 


face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno

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View Pikester's Profile Pikester Flag Worthing 18 Jul 05 1.01pm Send a Private Message to Pikester Add Pikester as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose


I find it a shame Slug that an intelligent fellow like yourself can't just come back and post on a wide variety of topics instead of limiting yourself to having a pop at few of your old enemies or trying to bait them.

Why ask to be banned? Why not come back and post across a broad spectrum of topics? How about a bit of silliness on Silly Talk or if our mortgages can stand it a return of Slug's Betting Tips?

It just seems a waste to me.

Anyway best of luck to you - hope to see you at the Palace one day.

Edited by Moose (19 Jul 2005 9:59am)

 


You fed me, you bred me, I'll remember your name.

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 19 Jul 05 1.02am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

I cannot believe how it takes bomb blasts in London and over 50 killed for Tony Blair to introduce new terror laws!! We knew this was coming!

* Outlawing "acts preparatory to terrorism", such as downloading bomb-making instructions from the internet
* New offence of indirect incitement to commit terrorist acts, such as preachers "glorifying" bombings
* New law for those providing or receiving terrorist training, in the UK or abroad

Why the fcuk weren't these laws introduced years ago??

The news comes on the day it's announced over 280,000 failed asylum seekers may still be in the UK. (source BBC News)

Why the fcuk aren't our border controls tighter?

The whole thing is too little, too late and yet again we prove that we're a soft touch compared to other countries.

 

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View Farawayeagle's Profile Farawayeagle Flag Sydney 19 Jul 05 1.30am Send a Private Message to Farawayeagle Add Farawayeagle as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Quote Penge Eagle at 19 Jul 2005 1:02am

I cannot believe how it takes bomb blasts in London and over 50 killed for Tony Blair to introduce new terror laws!! We knew this was coming!

* Outlawing "acts preparatory to terrorism", such as downloading bomb-making instructions from the internet
* New offence of indirect incitement to commit terrorist acts, such as preachers "glorifying" bombings
* New law for those providing or receiving terrorist training, in the UK or abroad

Why the fcuk weren't these laws introduced years ago??

The news comes on the day it's announced over 280,000 failed asylum seekers may still be in the UK. (source BBC News)

Why the fcuk aren't our border controls tighter?

The whole thing is too little, too late and yet again we prove that we're a soft touch compared to other countries.

I thought the reason was that the other main parties were fighting the introduction of new terrorism laws -- up 'til the bombings happened. Now they are supporting change.

Hardly TB's fault.

Tightening border controls has some effect. But with many citizens of other countries able to enter England as tourists and then disappear ---- there is little you can do to stop that.

I heard recently there are up to 1 million "illegals" in the UK.
So if your 280,000 failed asylum seekers is true -- I'd be just as concerned about the other 720,000 living in the UK without "papers." I'm not just talking about terrorism here. These people are also a drain/burden on the country's infrastructure.

This is an area where sophisticated ID cards (DNA/fingerprints etc) would help identify the illegals. If it was impossible to get a job or housing without having your ID verified -- it would make it much less attractive for many of the illegals to stay in the UK.

Sounds drastic. But it is a major problem in many countries and is likely to grow -- if governments don't look for solutions.

 


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View Deacon Blues's Profile Deacon Blues Flag Whangarei/Kerikeri 19 Jul 05 2.15am Send a Private Message to Deacon Blues Add Deacon Blues as a friend

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Interesting article in the paper over here on Sunday that put forward the theory that the bombers were not necessarily "suicide bombers" and were only intending to plant the bombs and then slip off back home, thus leaving their terrorist cell intact for another time. Which is why all their ID's, credit cards etc were with them and why they were so easily traced.

It went on to state that Al quaeda (or whoever planned the bombing) may have reasoned that more damage would be done to British morale by having the population know that these guys were "home grown" bombers and not just religious zealots flown in for a suicide mission, so they maybe double-crossed their operatives and timed the bombs to go off earlier than their carriers expected them to.

There was a shirt-load more in the article to back this theory up, much of it quite plausible, and they did quote from several London papers that this theory is being investigated by the police and MI5 intelligence.

Unfortunately it is not on the web, and is too long to type verbatim.

Have any of you seen other such reports???

 


"If you choose to live in a world ruled by hamburger, that is your choice.. I choose to wipe them out. And if I have to, I can do it by myself. "
-The Batwinged Hamburger Snatcher

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