France is very similar to Britain in the formation of it's populace, it has a similar history to Britain. I believe the Brettons are Celtic, but I think in the main the French are of Saxon origin, they made up part of the Gaul of Roman times that also included Belgium and parts of Germany and Holland, and then Armorica in the post-Roman era I believe, although the Normans - like the people of Norfolk - are generally speaking, of Nordic decent - which again is ultimately Germanic, so, it would be silly to term an anti-French attitude of a briton 'racist', but it also raises another point; is disliking a person because of his race, as bad as disliking a person because of his country of origin? If not, why not?
Let me just reiterate, I'm using the word 'dislike' here; not 'hate'.

My Rocksteady band...
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IT'S NOT SKA, IT'S ROCKSTEADY!

Ahh, that clears it up then. And if it had been Paul Ince sent off (another player we love to hate) and Simmons had called him a 'black ****' in the heat of the moment (not because he hates black people) he wouldn't deserve to be called a racist then either?

I think the answer is that racism is only racism if someone interprets it that way. It is common for English people to dislike the French or the Welsh so to insult their race is deemed acceptable. So something that is racist to one person may not be racist to someone else.

Yeah Simmons may well have said something like that had Ince been sent off but no I still wouldn't call him a racist. I would never say anything like that to Ince - not even in the heat of the moment - but they're certain individuals with the mentality of a moron who would say because they probably see it as 'being a lad', 'being cool' at a football match and wouldn't even give it a second thought after they said it....To me a racist is someone who would go to a football match, make monkey noises and throw a bananas on the pitch or someone who would stand on a street corner tormenting a person from a different culture even to the point of beating them up not a moron who can't think before he speaks.

At the end of the day we've all laughed at or told a racist joke (as have black people), that doesn't make us racists though does it?

Edited by Selhurst Stallion (28 Nov 2002 2:50pm)

"Friend first, Boss second..Probably chilled out entertainer third" - David Brent 2002.

That's exactly how I wanted to say it but couldn't. Yes Black, White, Asians, Indians we're all racists.

"Friend first, Boss second..Probably chilled out entertainer third" - David Brent 2002.

I agree with both of you, MU played the race card to good effect and Simmons ended up with the lifetime ban not the thug who attacked him. I was very close to the incident and MS certainly wasn't the only person who mentioned the ****'s nationality to detrimental effect that night. Political correctness saved Cantona's career.

However that doesn't alter the fact that calling someone a 'black ****' or a 'welsh ****' CAN be interpreted by the target as being every bit as offensive as throwing a banana (or a leak) on the pitch. Whatever the situation those comments can be construed as racial abuse.

Very interesting thread, Pete. As much as I wouuld like to say that we should all love our neighbour as ourselves, in reality that doesn't happen. As you mentioned the Welsh, DH was born and bred in Wales (Welsh mother/Scots father) and he would consider the 'sheep shagging' comments to be racial abuse, but it really doesn't bother him and he certainly doesn't see it as hatred, and the Welsh definitely give back as good as they get to the English!
I liked your points, SelhurstStallion, about colour of skin though. If, for example, an idiot wanted to shout abuse at Roy Keane, they would call him an 'Irish ****'; whereas the same idiot would automatically refer to Ince by his skin colour, not the fact that he was English. That's how I define the difference between racial abuse and hatred, anyway.