What I am truly struggling to understand is why May ever even considered bringing this to Parliament in the first place. The specifics of that backstop are so ludicrous in terms of effectively making the Uk subservient to whatever the EU wish to impose by their veto over us fully leaving that it was never going to pass in a million years.

A non-starter from the word go.

Now I have very little respect for May on a variety of levels but you do not reach the highest of offices without being calculating. And with regards to this 'deal' the numbers simply never added up.

Throw in reports of the whipping operation that was meant to persuade unruly MP's to support her was surprisingly lax, it seems clear that she never intended for this deal to pass.

Going back to the question of why even bring it to the table in the first place?

Perhaps I see too many Machiavellian undercurrents at pleay here and even being too generous to May but something about this all stinks.

It was a shockingly bad deal and offers the UK nothing other than potential grief. She has no plan B and must know that calling for a second referendum plunges the country into even more chaos.

Maybe a long game here? Wanting to force the Labour Party into committing to a second referendum, then parachuting Johnson in and fighting a new GE on a massive Leave/Remain narrative? Break down the result from June 23rd on a constintuency basis and the result is a massive one for Leave. Again though I could be granting the Tories far too much ability on that one.

But none of makes any conventional political sense. May cannot have genueinly thought she could push this through. Going all Boudecia and proclaiming herself as the champion of a 'No Deal' future makes more sense than her current strategy which is a lose-lose.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Sorry but this exactly what 2-3,000 people looks like.

Oh and I agree the footage of the opposition march shows about 2-300 people.

Attachment: Untitled.jpg (142.97Kb)

If I remember correctly Owen Jones said 1500 people for Robinson and 15,000 against him....even though it wasn't a march about Robinson....but his side made it about that anyway. He also said, 'a few hundred' and spent his time mocking the turn out.

I believe Sargon has proportionally rebuffed that as lies.

I have no idea what the real numbers were but I certainly trust Sargon far more than I trust Jones.

Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Dec 2018 12.25pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Parliament voted by a huge majority to pass the legislation necessary for the referendum to be held. They were aware of the question being asked which was as clear cut and binary as possible. Leave or Remain. Nice and simple along with the promise that the result would be implemented.

The mess lays squarely at the feet of May. She took charge of the entire process. Where I blame the rest of the Tory party, with notable exceptions, is that she should have gone ages ago.

But I cannot comprehend that she ever thought this deal would go through. That is where the twist in all of this lays. Just the reality of her relying on the DUP, and then putting forward a proposal that is their worst fear writ large in terms of Dublin, and in Varadkar the worst possible combination of the person almost wanting to eat himself in delight at rubbing it in, having a veto. Even if she could have somehow got her own rebels on side, hell would freeze over before the DUP voted for it.

The only possible concluision to reach is that she wanted this all to happen. No other logic to it.

(and yes thank you, all is as bon as a bon thing. A fortiutious financial windfall would be the cherry on the cake but I am truly blessed.)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

The whole thing is a mess. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Yes all of your points above are valid but I'm not sure that Parliament agreed that the result would be implemented which is no excuse because the Government did and now the Government should respect the result and implement it.

But we're led to believe that there is no majority in Parliament for a no deal departure.

One other point I should add. The Government didn't do any SWOT analysis before calling the referendum. So they weren't prepared for the threat of Dublin's veto even though it was starring them straight in the face.

Had they identified that threat as they should have done then the binary nature of a no deal departure / remain referendum would have been clear from the start and suitable preparations could have been made.

I voted remain but I'd like to see a no deal departure as that is the only available outcome that respects the referendum result. If the project doom merchants are right then we might decide to rejoin (with Schengen, the Euro and no rebate) and if Boris is right then we'll all be happy bunnies.

However all we're likely to see is the demise of the tory party, a democracy damaged beyond repair and possibly an SNP / Labour coalition run by an old fashioned Marxist. Which despite the fact that lots of people here think I'm a commie, I actually think would be a disaster.

(Happy to hear all is well. I keep my fingers crossed for you re the windfall)

I have absolutely no idea who Sargon is but I would imagine that the axe he's grinding is equally tangible.