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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 06 Sep 19 10.18am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by chris123


What do you think a referendum is then?

Don't start him off again as we all know his opinion and we're all sick of him repeating it on a daily basis

 

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 06 Sep 19 10.21am Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Both major parties have always had a "broad church" membership and MPs with vastly differing views. In that way they can appeal to a greater number of middle ground voters. As it's the middle ground which swing who actually gets into power this matters.

If either party goes to their hard extreme then they would soon fade to the margins. We have seen it with Labour and Corbyn. Now we are seeing it with the Tories and Johnson, although I strongly suspect it not to be permanent in their case. Nor actually for Labour too, or they won't get back in for long. Of course any party can refuse membership on whatever grounds it likes but it does so at a significant cost to it's electability. The most obvious beneficiary are the LibDems.

The plain fact is that MPs are free to vote whichever way they wish. Whether they should and what the consequences might be are completely different questions.

My hope, but not my expectation, is that this will split and eventually destroy both major parties and we can then see a genuine realignment of British politics. Of course those who believe in hard right and hard left politics need a permanent voice but so too do all those who don't and who occupy the moderate middle ground of tolerance and compassion which typifies the average British citizen. This might well result in constant coalition governments but at least we would not see any more coup attempts such as we have witnessed in recent years.

Agree with pretty much everything you’ve said, only the tolerance and compassion identity part of Britain and British citizens is split as well, what with it being for British citizens or for people outside of Britain and for how many. This issue only increases for obvious reasons.

I’ve also been thinking of what country do we, or some British in name, but not identity, think we want to be. I don’t like the thought of what those who are quite happy for us to evaporate into nothing much to think of or take notice of, which has been the main thing to stop me thinking we might as well call the whole thing of seeing as it’s being obstructed at any chance or non chance.

 


COYP

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Sep 19 10.24am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by chris123

What do you think a referendum is then?

Referendums have no legal standpoint in the British system of Parliamentary democracy.

The one in 2016 was only given any legitimacy by Cameron promising to honour it. PMs cannot commit Parliament! Parliament did then vote to trigger Article 50, in an attempt to force a deal to be concluded. Both of which were, in my opinion, mistakes.

Nevertheless, it is Parliament which is sovereign and as they can change their mind in the light of experience and circumstances they can revoke Article 50 if they no longer believe it is in the country's best interests to proceed. No political decision is set in stone for ever. They are all capable of being revised and overturned.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 06 Sep 19 10.28am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Referendums have no legal standpoint in the British system of Parliamentary democracy.

The one in 2016 was only given any legitimacy by Cameron promising to honour it. PMs cannot commit Parliament! Parliament did then vote to trigger Article 50, in an attempt to force a deal to be concluded. Both of which were, in my opinion, mistakes.

Nevertheless, it is Parliament which is sovereign and as they can change their mind in the light of experience and circumstances they can revoke Article 50 if they no longer believe it is in the country's best interests to proceed. No political decision is set in stone for ever. They are all capable of being revised and overturned.


Meaningless twaddle....again.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Sep 19 10.32am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Don't start him off again as we all know his opinion and we're all sick of him repeating it on a daily basis

Facts are not opinions.

Facts are facts.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 06 Sep 19 10.43am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Referendums have no legal standpoint in the British system of Parliamentary democracy.

The one in 2016 was only given any legitimacy by Cameron promising to honour it. PMs cannot commit Parliament! Parliament did then vote to trigger Article 50, in an attempt to force a deal to be concluded. Both of which were, in my opinion, mistakes.

Nevertheless, it is Parliament which is sovereign and as they can change their mind in the light of experience and circumstances they can revoke Article 50 if they no longer believe it is in the country's best interests to proceed. No political decision is set in stone for ever. They are all capable of being revised and overturned.

So let's leave and if it goes south reapply.
I'm sure the EU would take us and our money back in a heartbeat.
No pain no gain I think is the term.

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 06 Sep 19 10.46am Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

One good thing out of all this may be the end of referendums.

The whole reason for the Fixed Parliament's Act was so Cameron would only have to consult the voters once in five years, thus keeping the tories there more or less permanently.

So what does he do next?

He calls a referendum!! And 3 years of virtual civil war.

Thatcher, Attlee called referendums 'demagoguery'.

Compare what we have at present, to them.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 06 Sep 19 11.04am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Facts are not opinions.

Facts are facts.

You are hiding behind technicalities which the public quite reasonably expected would not be evoked.

Ultimately, the government could do whatever it pleases on any issue if it has the support of the military.

How far do you go with your technicalities?

You condemn Boris Johnson for using questionable but technically legitimate tactics, but when it favours your side, it is suddenly OK.

Typical.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 06 Sep 19 11.05am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Facts are not opinions.

Facts are facts.

MPs are representatives that is a fact. How much leeway that allows them is an opinion. Over the last few months I have heard many MPs and constitutional experts disagree on where you draw the line on that point.

Your opinion is on the extreme range that MPs should be free to decide what they think is best for the country regardless of what they electorate thought they were voting for.

The more moderate views I have heard from MPs is that they are free to vote on issues that are not in the party manifesto or where that party has no particular view e.g. matters of personal conscience.

The other exception to the party manifesto is if an MP makes a clear public statement that they will not follow the party line on a key issue during the election. People like Ken Clarke have never hidden their pro EU views and presumably the local voters are happy with this, it certainly should not be a surprise how he votes.

Where I and many on this board disagree with you is when an MP hides their intention until after they are elected. By the 2017 GE I do not think any MP was in any doubt as to the issues regarding Brexit so their personal view should have been clear to the voters. However for some MPs this has not been the case.

Then of course we have the MPs who have switched parties. My own personal view is that this should trigger a by election within 6 months or at the very least give the voters the opportunity for a recall election by petition.

If MPs are allowed to do as they think fit why do we bother with elections. We might as well have a ballot because we can never know how they will vote.

 


One more point

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 06 Sep 19 11.05am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

I have already given the opinion that most of the over 65s missed out on getting involved in a good war and they now want the under 25s to fight one for them. Stop being snowflakes. Either a financial/trade war or maybe even a real one

It is interesting that was not the opinion of those who actually fought in WW2. Largely they voted Remain

Also note that this is the group that mostly was involved in the first referendum. So clearly they don't think they were lied to.

[Link]

Hrolf and Midlands, stop denying facts. It is really boring. MPs represent all of their constituents, not only the majority that voted for them. They do this to the best of their ability, they don't take direct orders from their constituents.

[Link]

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 06 Sep 19 11.06am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

One good thing out of all this may be the end of referendums.

The whole reason for the Fixed Parliament's Act was so Cameron would only have to consult the voters once in five years, thus keeping the tories there more or less permanently.

So what does he do next?

He calls a referendum!! And 3 years of virtual civil war.

Thatcher, Attlee called referendums 'demagoguery'.

Compare what we have at present, to them.

I was about to agree with you then I remembered that the fishy woman wants another for Scotland. The way she is sucking up to Labour she may get it.

 


One more point

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 06 Sep 19 11.10am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

I have already given the opinion that most of the over 65s missed out on getting involved in a good war and they now want the under 25s to fight one for them. Stop being snowflakes. Either a financial/trade war or maybe even a real one

It is interesting that was not the opinion of those who actually fought in WW2. Largely they voted Remain

Also note that this is the group that mostly was involved in the first referendum. So clearly they don't think they were lied to.

[Link]

Hrolf and Midlands, stop denying facts. It is really boring. MPs represent all of their constituents, not only the majority that voted for them. They do this to the best of their ability, they don't take direct orders from their constituents.

[Link]

What?

You'd have to be at least 88 years old.

 

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