Contributing to a European rapid reaction force is a completely different concept to an European Army, which won't be happening any time soon.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

It seems like a reasonable stance to me. Put a deal on the table, which is likely to be very similar to the one already available, but as a Party not commit to it because the Party is split and it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise. Then go back to the people as a whole with a choice of three options with a single transferable vote. Take the deal, leave without a deal or remain.

I would be then be confident that leaving without a deal would come last so whilst to remain would be my choice I could live with an orderly exit if that was still the overall wish of the people.

I won't though be voting Labour, especially if Corbyn remains their leader.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Unless they made an electoral pact the Tories and Farage would split the leave vote in half causing them to come second and third all over the place. They might together get 50% of the vote but in our first past the post system that doesn't translate into seats.

Can you see them stitching up a deal? I can't see either doing it very willingly and I think the Tories grandees know it might be the end of their party, certainly for a long time ahead.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

I'm unable to fully talk about my work in an open context. I work with supposed refugees on a daily basis. In private, you learn a lot. In public these people are all victims.
For example, speaking to one I was dealing with recently he told me he was South African and was here for a better life. In his asylum case he is from the Congo fleeing civil war - I'm not supposed to know that but I have a friend. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I see it every day. I reported it to my boss and they shrugged their shoulders. There is a conflict of interests when we are paid by numbers - quantity means funding.
I have been incredibly tempted to report the whole thing to immigration but people will lose their jobs and I doubt I will be thanked.
Do some research on whistleblowers in Ireland and you will see what I mean.
I will admit this outright on here - I'm not sure anyone on here works with asylum seekers. I have been for a few years now and I am increasingly anti-immigration to the point of disliking even the individuals. Yet tomorrow I will meet a new batch. I would say straight off the boat but many fly with airlines I couldn't afford.
There was an interesting Dublin incident recently that illustrates this. A taxi driver sexually assaulted a passenger - turned out his entire identity was fake. When the authorities investigated they found that over 80 percent of foreign taxi drivers in Dublin had fake papers and were not genuine asylum seekers at all. They had been paying for fake papers and having them stamped by a corrupt Gard (policeman). I believe the charge was 300 euro. The Gard has not been charged yet.

Here is some independent proof on this:

[Link]

Worryingly there have been no investigations in the rest of the country.

Here is a general piece on asylum seekers but it is not the mail or the express or anything like that.

[Link]

And here is an EU political journal that talks about what the US customs thinks of the EU - along with some interesting stats on Syrian passports.

[Link]

On a personal note, I interviewed three Algerians last year. All were posing as Syrians. I finished the interview with 'why are you seeking asylum from Algeria?'.
'Life is very hard there.'
We kept them on our programme. Funding for three refugees - genuine or not, not our problem.
I guess people will do anything for a better life and I find it hard to blame them. So when you meet your next Syrian asylum seeker just have a little think. And yes, I meet genuine ones every day too

Red and Blue Army!

Listen, if I had promised to take my wife anywhere it wouldnt be in anyones interest to renege on the deal....

To take no deal off the table means that the EU negotiators hold all the cards, we have nowhere to go....rather like walking into a car showroom and stating 'Im gonna buy a car from you no matter what deal you either give or dont give me, Ill pay whatever you want. THe salesman would be laughing at you, rather like the EU is laughing now, they have us by the short and curlies..

Come off it.

Labours proposal is utterly ludicrous and beyond parody, even given the absolute rabbit-hole that British politics has plunged head-first into. Do you genuinely believe that they will offer us a Leave option that has even the smallest shred of credibility? Utterly delusional.

A second referendum with a Remain option threatens to destroy this country. It will undermine the very core of our democratic principles and if you think the divide is bad now, then it will become FAR worse if this happens, to the point of potentially no return. Leave does not go away. It merely becomes more entrenched along with a credible new narrative that there is no point in putting any more faith in our democratic processes to achieve our departure from the EU. One of the myriad of reasons for voting Leave in the first place was how other referendums in Ireland, France and Holland had been simply brushed aside and now our one? If you consider the likes of Farage and Cummings as chancers, then you are in for a real treat when it comes to what follows because why should anybody who voted Leave in 2016 believe anything they are told by our political class?

Let's assume we have this second referendum as proposed by Labour. Now I will not be voting and whilst I cannot speak for many of my fellow Leavers, I suspect that a huge boycott will take place. But the vote goes ahead and Remain wins, probably by some margin but on a much reduced turn-out. And less assume that turn out is below a figure like 52%? Just for argument's sake. How much credibility does it have? And why should we not demand another referendum? Or are we meant to just swallow this new one whilst ignoring the fact that the likes of you failed to understand how it is meant to work the first time around?

Now I loathe the Liberal Democrats as much as the next reasonable human being but their new stance of just revoking A50 has an honesty to it. The referendum from 2016 was advisory only and they mainly objected to it being held in the first place. Of course if they get their way Leave does not go away and the battle continues but democracy is not damaged as much. Because a case can still be made in the future for people to vote.

But another referendum with Remain as an option? No. That rips us apart even more.

And it is merely window dressing to assuage the guilt of many on the left who want to maintain their self-image as reasonable people who believe in democracy. But you don't get to maintain that illusion. You lost in 2016. The case for Remain is done and dusted. Over. There is possibly a coherent argument to be made for a second referendum on how we leave but that is still open for a huge debate but I am willing to concede that a case could be made. But Remain? It offers nothing. There is no return to the status quo. Britain goes back into the EU not only humiliated and open to all sorts of perfectly justifiable criticism from the other 27 states for pissing them about but Leave takes on an entirely new meaning. It becomes about so much more than just the EU. An absolute Pandora's box of unforeseen and potentially horrendous consequences.

If you want us Leavers f***ed over then have the balls to spit in our faces, like the Lib Dems want to do, rather than stab us in the back because whilst we will react BADLY to both, at least we would not have been made to suffer the indignity of you w***ers trying to maintain your stand on the moral high ground. Remain is a swamp dwellers position now. The antithesis of any semblance of democratic belief. Own that. Wear that hat.

Democracy needs people to accept that if you lose, you lose. You want that destroyed.

Edited by Matov (10 Sep 2019 8.17pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.