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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 21 Sep 21 12.22pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Exactly which is why I am against taking the knee.* It's not just racism but all sorts of nasty and illegal stuff such as online stalking, slut shaming, revenge p*. child p* etc none of which the online providers do enough about. Taking the knee is just gesture politics, the players and other celebs have the power if they choose to use it. For instance start a campaign "Blackout Friday" everybody chooses not to use social media that day led by the players.* However the lack of players threatening to come off social media indicates that they are more concerned about their social media presence and money making than about being serious in tackling the issue. Taking the knee doesn't get the job done. Like this you mean? [Link]

EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 21 Sep 21 12.22pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Exactly which is why I am against taking the knee.*

It's not just racism but all sorts of nasty and illegal stuff such as online stalking, slut shaming, revenge p***. child p*** etc none of which the online providers do enough about.

*Taking the knee is just gesture politics, the players and other celebs have the power if they choose to use it.

For instance start a campaign "Blackout Friday" everybody chooses not to use social media that day led by the players.

However the lack of players threatening to come off social media indicates that they are more concerned about their social media presence and money making than about being serious in tackling the issue.

Taking the knee doesn't get the job done.

Like this you mean?

[Link]

Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 21 12.30pm
Originally posted by kuge Relativity is an interesting angle. As we all know the attention that Palace attracts in the press is relatively less than that afforded to other clubs. This is disappointing but logical. It does not mean that Palace is not important just that others don’t recognise the importance for Palace to be equal to say Man U. The same argument might be made to the level of attention given to particle physics in comparison to Love Island. The former is quite clearly of greater importance but it is generally ignored. If racism is not a problem that requires attention to be drawn to it then perhaps we can at least agree that there is a small racist minority in the UK that seeks to propagate racist views? As you say, minorities seeking to exert power and influence by playing the race card. No matter how small this group is it is legitimate for those that believe racism to be wrong (nearly everyone) to take action against them. The companies that have supported the actions are as you say doing it for commercial purposes. The support of popular ideas will always attract companies seeking commercial gain. That does not make them insincere people, it’s just good business. Supporting popular morally correct views is essential to their commercial success. I have no doubt that many companies would take the opposite position if they thought it would help sell more of what they make. The argument that the problem is minor and not worth bothering with does not carry much weight. Just suppose that this was true, all it would mean is that we are doubling down on something that is rare but when it happens abhorrent. What can possibly be the problem with that? It could be seen as a precautionary action, like wearing a seat belt. Immigrants are as you say seeking to come to Britain because they preserve it to be a liberal democracy that will offer them asylum from the wars and oppressive regimes that they are fleeing. You offer this up as evidence that the UK is not a racist country. On the other hand, it is clear that some people in the UK feel uncomfortable with that image and that some will express those feelings in racist statements. Which is correct? Is the UK not that place or it is that place? I agree that online abuse can best be addressed by ignoring it, however, we must recognise that abuse whatever form it takes and wherever it comes from destroys lives. I don’t believe that saying it is happening is not giving the abusers attention, rather it highlights that it is wrong. The platform providers have to take a lot more responsibility here. There is a difference between ignoring something because it is of little concern and ignoring something because it is pervasive. Edited by kuge (21 Sep 2021 11.41am) I'm glad we agree... Even if you had to sandwich it between a pile of virtue signalling waffle.

Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 21 12.30pm

Originally posted by kuge

Relativity is an interesting angle. As we all know the attention that Palace attracts in the press is relatively less than that afforded to other clubs. This is disappointing but logical. It does not mean that Palace is not important just that others don’t recognise the importance for Palace to be equal to say Man U. The same argument might be made to the level of attention given to particle physics in comparison to Love Island. The former is quite clearly of greater importance but it is generally ignored.

If racism is not a problem that requires attention to be drawn to it then perhaps we can at least agree that there is a small racist minority in the UK that seeks to propagate racist views? As you say, minorities seeking to exert power and influence by playing the race card.

No matter how small this group is it is legitimate for those that believe racism to be wrong (nearly everyone) to take action against them. The companies that have supported the actions are as you say doing it for commercial purposes. The support of popular ideas will always attract companies seeking commercial gain. That does not make them insincere people, it’s just good business. Supporting popular morally correct views is essential to their commercial success. I have no doubt that many companies would take the opposite position if they thought it would help sell more of what they make.

The argument that the problem is minor and not worth bothering with does not carry much weight. Just suppose that this was true, all it would mean is that we are doubling down on something that is rare but when it happens abhorrent. What can possibly be the problem with that? It could be seen as a precautionary action, like wearing a seat belt.

Immigrants are as you say seeking to come to Britain because they preserve it to be a liberal democracy that will offer them asylum from the wars and oppressive regimes that they are fleeing. You offer this up as evidence that the UK is not a racist country. On the other hand, it is clear that some people in the UK feel uncomfortable with that image and that some will express those feelings in racist statements. Which is correct? Is the UK not that place or it is that place?

I agree that online abuse can best be addressed by ignoring it, however, we must recognise that abuse whatever form it takes and wherever it comes from destroys lives. I don’t believe that saying it is happening is not giving the abusers attention, rather it highlights that it is wrong. The platform providers have to take a lot more responsibility here. There is a difference between ignoring something because it is of little concern and ignoring something because it is pervasive.

Edited by kuge (21 Sep 2021 11.41am)

I'm glad we agree... Even if you had to sandwich it between a pile of virtue signalling waffle.

rikz Croydon 21 Sep 21 12.31pm
Originally posted by kuge It is because a large number of professional footballers are black that racism is a problem in football. As to why players take the knee they have clearly stated on many occasions that they do it to draw attention to racism both in football and more widely in society. So let's take saka for example, received racist tweets from a dozen twitter troll accounts after the euros final, was given a standing ovation by every spurs fans in the friendly then every Brentford fan o the first game back, so 12 vs say 50,000 doesn't seem like a massive problem to me. It's sensationalised in the media as its an emotive subject and is no more than clickbait. Funny how we live in such a racist society that in this country the highest average median wage by ethnicity is firstly British Chinese followed by British Indian and then British mixed. We are not very good at being racist.

rikz

Croydon 21 Sep 21 12.31pm

Originally posted by kuge

It is because a large number of professional footballers are black that racism is a problem in football. As to why players take the knee they have clearly stated on many occasions that they do it to draw attention to racism both in football and more widely in society.

Funny how we live in such a racist society that in this country the highest average median wage by ethnicity is firstly British Chinese followed by British Indian and then British mixed. We are not very good at being racist.

Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 21 12.38pm
Originally posted by rikz So let's take saka for example, received racist tweets from a dozen twitter troll accounts after the euros final, was given a standing ovation by every spurs fans in the friendly then every Brentford fan o the first game back, so 12 vs say 50,000 doesn't seem like a massive problem to me. It's sensationalised in the media as its an emotive subject and is no more than clickbait. Funny how we live in such a racist society that in this country the highest average median wage by ethnicity is firstly British Chinese followed by British Indian and then British mixed. We are not very good at being racist. It's only the demographics who constantly underperform that complain about racism. Many immigrants do just fine here. Maybe the rest should look closer to home

Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 21 12.38pm

Originally posted by rikz

So let's take saka for example, received racist tweets from a dozen twitter troll accounts after the euros final, was given a standing ovation by every spurs fans in the friendly then every Brentford fan o the first game back, so 12 vs say 50,000 doesn't seem like a massive problem to me. It's sensationalised in the media as its an emotive subject and is no more than clickbait.

Funny how we live in such a racist society that in this country the highest average median wage by ethnicity is firstly British Chinese followed by British Indian and then British mixed. We are not very good at being racist.

It's only the demographics who constantly underperform that complain about racism. Many immigrants do just fine here.

Maybe the rest should look closer to home

kuge Peckham 21 Sep 21 12.40pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Exactly which is why I am against taking the knee.* It's not just racism but all sorts of nasty and illegal stuff such as online stalking, slut shaming, revenge p*. child p* etc none of which the online providers do enough about. *Taking the knee is just gesture politics, the players and other celebs have the power if they choose to use it. For instance start a campaign "Blackout Friday" everybody chooses not to use social media that day led by the players. However the lack of players threatening to come off social media indicates that they are more concerned about their social media presence and money making than about being serious in tackling the issue. Taking the knee doesn't get the job done. I believe that taking the knee is an individual choice. There is being against taking the knee yourself and not wanting other people to do it. The first is entirely legitimate and the second feels like an infringement of the right of players to express a grievance. I agree that it’s not nearly enough. The word gesture is used to suggest that such actions are without conviction. I would disagree about this, what people do with their bodies is powerful. Standing up, sitting down, saluting, hugging, etc all communicate in different ways. Perhaps we could call this action rather than gesture? Taking a knee was first chosen by Colin Kaepernick to be significant whilst still respectful. Really it is nothing new in intention just form. Often before a match, there will be a minute of clapping or a minute of silence to remember an event or a person. There is, however, little consistency between what is commemorated and what is not. Will we have a minutes silence for Jimmy Greeves on Monday might? Maybe the will at Spurs and Chelsea? The boycotting of social media for one day a week is an excellent idea. I think, however, that ‘Blackout Friday’ might be misconstrued in the context of racism. The reasons why that players or anyone for that matter engage on social media are wide-ranging. Some will be there for commercial gain but many are seeking to use their fame to attract attention to injustice and inequality.

kuge

Peckham 21 Sep 21 12.40pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Exactly which is why I am against taking the knee.*

It's not just racism but all sorts of nasty and illegal stuff such as online stalking, slut shaming, revenge p***. child p*** etc none of which the online providers do enough about.

*Taking the knee is just gesture politics, the players and other celebs have the power if they choose to use it.

For instance start a campaign "Blackout Friday" everybody chooses not to use social media that day led by the players.

Taking the knee doesn't get the job done.

I believe that taking the knee is an individual choice. There is being against taking the knee yourself and not wanting other people to do it. The first is entirely legitimate and the second feels like an infringement of the right of players to express a grievance.

I agree that it’s not nearly enough. The word gesture is used to suggest that such actions are without conviction. I would disagree about this, what people do with their bodies is powerful. Standing up, sitting down, saluting, hugging, etc all communicate in different ways. Perhaps we could call this action rather than gesture?

Taking a knee was first chosen by Colin Kaepernick to be significant whilst still respectful. Really it is nothing new in intention just form. Often before a match, there will be a minute of clapping or a minute of silence to remember an event or a person. There is, however, little consistency between what is commemorated and what is not. Will we have a minutes silence for Jimmy Greeves on Monday might? Maybe the will at Spurs and Chelsea?

The boycotting of social media for one day a week is an excellent idea. I think, however, that ‘Blackout Friday’ might be misconstrued in the context of racism. The reasons why that players or anyone for that matter engage on social media are wide-ranging. Some will be there for commercial gain but many are seeking to use their fame to attract attention to injustice and inequality.

rikz Croydon 21 Sep 21 12.52pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It's only the demographics who constantly underperform that complain about racism. Many immigrants do just fine here. Maybe the rest should look closer to home Also blacks are classed as one demographic, If you split them up, you'll see the majority who achieve in school, go to university and are In skilled jobs tend to have African names where as black British and Caribbean boys are up there with white working class males as having the poorest results in school. So Indians, Chinese and Africans who all tend to come from fairly religious backgrounds that celebrate strong traditional family values and views where they have a two parent household tend to do better hmmmm I wonder why that could be

rikz

Croydon 21 Sep 21 12.52pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It's only the demographics who constantly underperform that complain about racism. Many immigrants do just fine here.

Maybe the rest should look closer to home

Also blacks are classed as one demographic, If you split them up, you'll see the majority who achieve in school, go to university and are In skilled jobs tend to have African names where as black British and Caribbean boys are up there with white working class males as having the poorest results in school.

So Indians, Chinese and Africans who all tend to come from fairly religious backgrounds that celebrate strong traditional family values and views where they have a two parent household tend to do better hmmmm I wonder why that could be

Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 21 1.04pm
Originally posted by rikz Also blacks are classed as one demographic, If you split them up, you'll see the majority who achieve in school, go to university and are In skilled jobs tend to have African names where as black British and Caribbean boys are up there with white working class males as having the poorest results in school. So Indians, Chinese and Africans who all tend to come from fairly religious backgrounds that celebrate strong traditional family values and views where they have a two parent household tend to do better hmmmm I wonder why that could be This seems to be the unavoidable conclusion.

Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 21 1.04pm

Originally posted by rikz

This seems to be the unavoidable conclusion.

Teddy Eagle 21 Sep 21 1.09pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow Like this you mean? [Link] Yes. Between them Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar have C 350m Facebook followers. If all footballers came off social media there would be billions of people involved.

Teddy Eagle

21 Sep 21 1.09pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Like this you mean?

[Link]

Yes. Between them Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar have C 350m Facebook followers. If all footballers came off social media there would be billions of people involved.

kuge Peckham 21 Sep 21 1.12pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I'm glad we agree... Even if you had to sandwich it between a pile of virtue signalling waffle. I am sure there is a great deal that we might agree on. To dismiss what I wrote as waffle and virtue signalling is in itself an ad hominem and as such does not address the issues raised.

kuge

Peckham 21 Sep 21 1.12pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I'm glad we agree... Even if you had to sandwich it between a pile of virtue signalling waffle.

I am sure there is a great deal that we might agree on.

To dismiss what I wrote as waffle and virtue signalling is in itself an ad hominem and as such does not address the issues raised.

kuge Peckham 21 Sep 21 1.22pm
Originally posted by rikz Also blacks are classed as one demographic, If you split them up, you'll see the majority who achieve in school, go to university and are In skilled jobs tend to have African names where as black British and Caribbean boys are up there with white working class males as having the poorest results in school. So Indians, Chinese and Africans who all tend to come from fairly religious backgrounds that celebrate strong traditional family values and views where they have a two parent household tend to do better hmmmm I wonder why that could be You are suggesting that the racism that people of colour suffer is nuanced to their origins? And that a differential in the level of single-parent families is the key. If this were true all that would be required to solve the problem is a substantial investment in education. Whilst the investment is very necessary and it would be welcome I do not think it is a simple as that. Think that you will find if you speak to people that come from the groups you have identified as successful that they have experienced an equal amount of racism in their lives. Also the Chinese are amongst the least religious people on the planet.

kuge

Peckham 21 Sep 21 1.22pm

Originally posted by rikz

You are suggesting that the racism that people of colour suffer is nuanced to their origins? And that a differential in the level of single-parent families is the key. If this were true all that would be required to solve the problem is a substantial investment in education. Whilst the investment is very necessary and it would be welcome I do not think it is a simple as that.

Think that you will find if you speak to people that come from the groups you have identified as successful that they have experienced an equal amount of racism in their lives.

Also the Chinese are amongst the least religious people on the planet.

BlueJay UK 21 Sep 21 1.33pm
Originally posted by kuge I am sure there is a great deal that we might agree on. To dismiss what I wrote as waffle and virtue signalling is in itself an ad hominem and as such does not address the issues raised. The problem with fobbing everything off as 'virtue signalling' is that eventually actual virtue gets thrown in there too since almost every act of decency becomes cynically viewed as some kind of 'put on' designed to influence or dictate to others. It's a perspective that inevitably damages and diminishes the moral compass of anyone making it their mantra.

BlueJay

UK 21 Sep 21 1.33pm

Originally posted by kuge

I am sure there is a great deal that we might agree on.

To dismiss what I wrote as waffle and virtue signalling is in itself an ad hominem and as such does not address the issues raised.

The problem with fobbing everything off as 'virtue signalling' is that eventually actual virtue gets thrown in there too since almost every act of decency becomes cynically viewed as some kind of 'put on' designed to influence or dictate to others. It's a perspective that inevitably damages and diminishes the moral compass of anyone making it their mantra.

Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 21 1.33pm
Originally posted by kuge I am sure there is a great deal that we might agree on. To dismiss what I wrote as waffle and virtue signalling is in itself an ad hominem and as such does not address the issues raised. It's fairly obvious that no reasonable person wants racism, however, no reasonable person thinks that the media and football campaign against racism is anything more than self-serving virtue signalling. There will never be zero prejudice against anyone or anything. This is just another out of reach holy grail held up to distract people from reality. The trouble is that every generation is full of more gullible people to manipulate. The law does not allow for prejudice, and that's the best outcome that any minority can hope for. The war is over, but it is in the interests of corporations and politicians to keep the fight going anyway.

Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 21 1.33pm

Originally posted by kuge

I am sure there is a great deal that we might agree on.

To dismiss what I wrote as waffle and virtue signalling is in itself an ad hominem and as such does not address the issues raised.

It's fairly obvious that no reasonable person wants racism, however, no reasonable person thinks that the media and football campaign against racism is anything more than self-serving virtue signalling.

There will never be zero prejudice against anyone or anything. This is just another out of reach holy grail held up to distract people from reality.
The trouble is that every generation is full of more gullible people to manipulate.
The law does not allow for prejudice, and that's the best outcome that any minority can hope for. The war is over, but it is in the interests of corporations and politicians to keep the fight going anyway.

Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 21 1.35pm
Originally posted by BlueJay The problem with fobbing everything off as 'virtue signalling' is that eventually actual virtue gets thrown in there too since almost every act of decency becomes cynically viewed as some kind of 'put on' designed to influence or dictate to others. It's a perspective that inevitably damages and diminishes the moral compass of anyone making it their mantra. Perhaps the secret is telling one from the other.

Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 21 1.35pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

The problem with fobbing everything off as 'virtue signalling' is that eventually actual virtue gets thrown in there too since almost every act of decency becomes cynically viewed as some kind of 'put on' designed to influence or dictate to others. It's a perspective that inevitably damages and diminishes the moral compass of anyone making it their mantra.

Perhaps the secret is telling one from the other.

Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 21 1.38pm
Originally posted by kuge You are suggesting that the racism that people of colour suffer is nuanced to their origins? And that a differential in the level of single-parent families is the key. If this were true all that would be required to solve the problem is a substantial investment in education. Whilst the investment is very necessary and it would be welcome I do not think it is a simple as that. Think that you will find if you speak to people that come from the groups you have identified as successful that they have experienced an equal amount of racism in their lives. Also the Chinese are amongst the least religious people on the planet. Religion is not the key factor. It is a structured, stable background that encourages positive behaviour.

Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 21 1.38pm

Originally posted by kuge

Think that you will find if you speak to people that come from the groups you have identified as successful that they have experienced an equal amount of racism in their lives.

Also the Chinese are amongst the least religious people on the planet.

Religion is not the key factor. It is a structured, stable background that encourages positive behaviour.

kuge Peckham 21 Sep 21 1.45pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Religion is not the key factor. It is a structured, stable background that encourages positive behaviour. I can agree with that. Although we might need to define what constitutes structured.

kuge

Peckham 21 Sep 21 1.45pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Religion is not the key factor. It is a structured, stable background that encourages positive behaviour.

I can agree with that. Although we might need to define what constitutes structured.

Hrolf The Ganger 21 Sep 21 1.58pm
Originally posted by kuge I can agree with that. Although we might need to define what constitutes structured. Structure is perhaps a rather clumsy word. More an upbringing that promotes a framework of personal discipline and morality which complements society. In other words, one that keeps you on the straight and narrow rather than getting into undesirable pursuits. Good parenting and a positive environment.

Hrolf The Ganger

21 Sep 21 1.58pm

Originally posted by kuge

I can agree with that. Although we might need to define what constitutes structured.

Structure is perhaps a rather clumsy word. More an upbringing that promotes a framework of personal discipline and morality which complements society.
In other words, one that keeps you on the straight and narrow rather than getting into undesirable pursuits.

Good parenting and a positive environment.

croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 21 Sep 21 2.14pm
Originally posted by rikz So let's take saka for example, received racist tweets from a dozen twitter troll accounts after the euros final, was given a standing ovation by every spurs fans in the friendly then every Brentford fan o the first game back, so 12 vs say 50,000 doesn't seem like a massive problem to me. It's sensationalised in the media as its an emotive subject and is no more than clickbait. Funny how we live in such a racist society that in this country the highest average median wage by ethnicity is firstly British Chinese followed by British Indian and then British mixed. We are not very good at being racist. Or we are not very good at school!

croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 21 Sep 21 2.14pm

Originally posted by rikz

Or we are not very good at school!

Badger11 Beckenham 21 Sep 21 2.26pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow Like this you mean? [Link] Yup but a one off is no good it needs to be weekly or a complete withdrawal. I never even noticed it this one how many other people missed it including the social media companies. It's not just social media players need to go after UEFA and FIFA and their shameless pathetic small fines for whole stadiums abusing players. Hit em where it hurts, threaten to withdraw from the champions league and international matches. I doubt they will because that means the players will suffer as well. Well if you want to be taken seriously you have to have skin in the game. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 21 Sep 21 2.26pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Like this you mean?

[Link]

Yup but a one off is no good it needs to be weekly or a complete withdrawal. I never even noticed it this one how many other people missed it including the social media companies.

It's not just social media players need to go after UEFA and FIFA and their shameless pathetic small fines for whole stadiums abusing players.

Hit em where it hurts, threaten to withdraw from the champions league and international matches. I doubt they will because that means the players will suffer as well.

Well if you want to be taken seriously you have to have skin in the game.

One more point

rikz Croydon 21 Sep 21 2.42pm
Originally posted by kuge You are suggesting that the racism that people of colour suffer is nuanced to their origins? And that a differential in the level of single-parent families is the key. If this were true all that would be required to solve the problem is a substantial investment in education. Whilst the investment is very necessary and it would be welcome I do not think it is a simple as that. Think that you will find if you speak to people that come from the groups you have identified as successful that they have experienced an equal amount of racism in their lives. Also the Chinese are amongst the least religious people on the planet. There's a massive difference between racism and systemic racism, I'm sure they've all been called names, along with overweight kids, ginger kids etc in this country it doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, if you work hard enough you can achieve whatever you want.

rikz

Croydon 21 Sep 21 2.42pm

Originally posted by kuge

Think that you will find if you speak to people that come from the groups you have identified as successful that they have experienced an equal amount of racism in their lives.

Also the Chinese are amongst the least religious people on the planet.

There's a massive difference between racism and systemic racism, I'm sure they've all been called names, along with overweight kids, ginger kids etc in this country it doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, if you work hard enough you can achieve whatever you want.

BlueJay UK 21 Sep 21 2.44pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Perhaps the secret is telling one from the other. It's a hall of mirrors, as it's always 'someone else' who is virtual signalling, and the person pointing it out who is inferring that they instead hold a genuine moral standard. In essence it's no difference from the type of behaviour it seeks to criticise.

BlueJay

UK 21 Sep 21 2.44pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Perhaps the secret is telling one from the other.

It's a hall of mirrors, as it's always 'someone else' who is virtual signalling, and the person pointing it out who is inferring that they instead hold a genuine moral standard. In essence it's no difference from the type of behaviour it seeks to criticise.

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