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View rikz's Profile rikz Flag Croydon 21 Sep 21 10.55am Send a Private Message to rikz Add rikz as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

Are you claiming that racism is no longer a problem in football and more generally in the UK?

The keeling is a reaction to abuse that these players have received and continue to receive. The fact that they get abused for taking the knee demonstrates that it is needed.

If racism was that much of a problem in football then why are 40% of Premier league footballers black ?

I thought the kneeling was in support of BLM ?

 

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View kuge's Profile kuge Flag Peckham 21 Sep 21 11.38am Send a Private Message to kuge Add kuge as a friend

Originally posted by rikz

If racism was that much of a problem in football then why are 40% of Premier league footballers black ?

I thought the kneeling was in support of BLM ?

It is because a large number of professional footballers are black that racism is a problem in football. As to why players take the knee they have clearly stated on many occasions that they do it to draw attention to racism both in football and more widely in society.

 

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View kuge's Profile kuge Flag Peckham 21 Sep 21 11.39am Send a Private Message to kuge Add kuge as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


What I actually think is that all things are relative, and that racism in this country is not worthy of the politically motivated exposure it gets.
It is all just a predictable sign of minorities trying to increase their power and influence across society by playing the race card. Media companies have hijacked this phenomenon for commercial purposes, and given it momentum.

A good indication of how racist Britain is are the vast numbers of immigrants who wish to come here.
Many mistake favouritism towards one's own kind as racism toward another. No immigrant in any country will get a level playing field in that respect, and that is why we have laws to manage that reality.
Online abuse is a tiny problem, much of which comes from abroad, and is best ignored to starve the abusers of the attention they crave.
Oddly enough, a tactic that some of us should employ on here.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (21 Sep 2021 9.30am)

Relativity is an interesting angle. As we all know the attention that Palace attracts in the press is relatively less than that afforded to other clubs. This is disappointing but logical. It does not mean that Palace is not important just that others donít recognise the importance for Palace to be equal to say Man U. The same argument might be made to the level of attention given to particle physics in comparison to Love Island. The former is quite clearly of greater importance but it is generally ignored.

If racism is not a problem that requires attention to be drawn to it then perhaps we can at least agree that there is a small racist minority in the UK that seeks to propagate racist views? As you say, minorities seeking to exert power and influence by playing the race card.

No matter how small this group is it is legitimate for those that believe racism to be wrong (nearly everyone) to take action against them. The companies that have supported the actions are as you say doing it for commercial purposes. The support of popular ideas will always attract companies seeking commercial gain. That does not make them insincere people, itís just good business. Supporting popular morally correct views is essential to their commercial success. I have no doubt that many companies would take the opposite position if they thought it would help sell more of what they make.

The argument that the problem is minor and not worth bothering with does not carry much weight. Just suppose that this was true, all it would mean is that we are doubling down on something that is rare but when it happens abhorrent. What can possibly be the problem with that? It could be seen as a precautionary action, like wearing a seat belt.

Immigrants are as you say seeking to come to Britain because they preserve it to be a liberal democracy that will offer them asylum from the wars and oppressive regimes that they are fleeing. You offer this up as evidence that the UK is not a racist country. On the other hand, it is clear that some people in the UK feel uncomfortable with that image and that some will express those feelings in racist statements. Which is correct? Is the UK not that place or it is that place?

I agree that online abuse can best be addressed by ignoring it, however, we must recognise that abuse whatever form it takes and wherever it comes from destroys lives. I donít believe that saying it is happening is not giving the abusers attention, rather it highlights that it is wrong. The platform providers have to take a lot more responsibility here. There is a difference between ignoring something because it is of little concern and ignoring something because it is pervasive.


Edited by kuge (21 Sep 2021 11.41am)

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 21 Sep 21 12.13pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

Relativity is an interesting angle. As we all know the attention that Palace attracts in the press is relatively less than that afforded to other clubs. This is disappointing but logical. It does not mean that Palace is not important just that others donít recognise the importance for Palace to be equal to say Man U. The same argument might be made to the level of attention given to particle physics in comparison to Love Island. The former is quite clearly of greater importance but it is generally ignored.

If racism is not a problem that requires attention to be drawn to it then perhaps we can at least agree that there is a small racist minority in the UK that seeks to propagate racist views? As you say, minorities seeking to exert power and influence by playing the race card.

No matter how small this group is it is legitimate for those that believe racism to be wrong (nearly everyone) to take action against them. The companies that have supported the actions are as you say doing it for commercial purposes. The support of popular ideas will always attract companies seeking commercial gain. That does not make them insincere people, itís just good business. Supporting popular morally correct views is essential to their commercial success. I have no doubt that many companies would take the opposite position if they thought it would help sell more of what they make.

The argument that the problem is minor and not worth bothering with does not carry much weight. Just suppose that this was true, all it would mean is that we are doubling down on something that is rare but when it happens abhorrent. What can possibly be the problem with that? It could be seen as a precautionary action, like wearing a seat belt.

Immigrants are as you say seeking to come to Britain because they preserve it to be a liberal democracy that will offer them asylum from the wars and oppressive regimes that they are fleeing. You offer this up as evidence that the UK is not a racist country. On the other hand, it is clear that some people in the UK feel uncomfortable with that image and that some will express those feelings in racist statements. Which is correct? Is the UK not that place or it is that place?

I agree that online abuse can best be addressed by ignoring it, however, we must recognise that abuse whatever form it takes and wherever it comes from destroys lives. I donít believe that saying it is happening is not giving the abusers attention, rather it highlights that it is wrong. The platform providers have to take a lot more responsibility here. There is a difference between ignoring something because it is of little concern and ignoring something because it is pervasive.


Edited by kuge (21 Sep 2021 11.41am)

Exactly which is why I am against taking the knee.*

It's not just racism but all sorts of nasty and illegal stuff such as online stalking, slut shaming, revenge p***. child p*** etc none of which the online providers do enough about.

*Taking the knee is just gesture politics, the players and other celebs have the power if they choose to use it.

For instance start a campaign "Blackout Friday" everybody chooses not to use social media that day led by the players.

However the lack of players threatening to come off social media indicates that they are more concerned about their social media presence and money making than about being serious in tackling the issue.

Taking the knee doesn't get the job done.

 


One more point

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 21 Sep 21 12.22pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Exactly which is why I am against taking the knee.*

It's not just racism but all sorts of nasty and illegal stuff such as online stalking, slut shaming, revenge p***. child p*** etc none of which the online providers do enough about.

*Taking the knee is just gesture politics, the players and other celebs have the power if they choose to use it.

For instance start a campaign "Blackout Friday" everybody chooses not to use social media that day led by the players.

However the lack of players threatening to come off social media indicates that they are more concerned about their social media presence and money making than about being serious in tackling the issue.

Taking the knee doesn't get the job done.

Like this you mean?

[Link]

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Sep 21 12.30pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

Relativity is an interesting angle. As we all know the attention that Palace attracts in the press is relatively less than that afforded to other clubs. This is disappointing but logical. It does not mean that Palace is not important just that others donít recognise the importance for Palace to be equal to say Man U. The same argument might be made to the level of attention given to particle physics in comparison to Love Island. The former is quite clearly of greater importance but it is generally ignored.

If racism is not a problem that requires attention to be drawn to it then perhaps we can at least agree that there is a small racist minority in the UK that seeks to propagate racist views? As you say, minorities seeking to exert power and influence by playing the race card.

No matter how small this group is it is legitimate for those that believe racism to be wrong (nearly everyone) to take action against them. The companies that have supported the actions are as you say doing it for commercial purposes. The support of popular ideas will always attract companies seeking commercial gain. That does not make them insincere people, itís just good business. Supporting popular morally correct views is essential to their commercial success. I have no doubt that many companies would take the opposite position if they thought it would help sell more of what they make.

The argument that the problem is minor and not worth bothering with does not carry much weight. Just suppose that this was true, all it would mean is that we are doubling down on something that is rare but when it happens abhorrent. What can possibly be the problem with that? It could be seen as a precautionary action, like wearing a seat belt.

Immigrants are as you say seeking to come to Britain because they preserve it to be a liberal democracy that will offer them asylum from the wars and oppressive regimes that they are fleeing. You offer this up as evidence that the UK is not a racist country. On the other hand, it is clear that some people in the UK feel uncomfortable with that image and that some will express those feelings in racist statements. Which is correct? Is the UK not that place or it is that place?

I agree that online abuse can best be addressed by ignoring it, however, we must recognise that abuse whatever form it takes and wherever it comes from destroys lives. I donít believe that saying it is happening is not giving the abusers attention, rather it highlights that it is wrong. The platform providers have to take a lot more responsibility here. There is a difference between ignoring something because it is of little concern and ignoring something because it is pervasive.


Edited by kuge (21 Sep 2021 11.41am)

I'm glad we agree... Even if you had to sandwich it between a pile of virtue signalling waffle.

 

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View rikz's Profile rikz Flag Croydon 21 Sep 21 12.31pm Send a Private Message to rikz Add rikz as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

It is because a large number of professional footballers are black that racism is a problem in football. As to why players take the knee they have clearly stated on many occasions that they do it to draw attention to racism both in football and more widely in society.

So let's take saka for example, received racist tweets from a dozen twitter troll accounts after the euros final, was given a standing ovation by every spurs fans in the friendly then every Brentford fan o the first game back, so 12 vs say 50,000 doesn't seem like a massive problem to me. It's sensationalised in the media as its an emotive subject and is no more than clickbait.

Funny how we live in such a racist society that in this country the highest average median wage by ethnicity is firstly British Chinese followed by British Indian and then British mixed. We are not very good at being racist.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Sep 21 12.38pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by rikz

So let's take saka for example, received racist tweets from a dozen twitter troll accounts after the euros final, was given a standing ovation by every spurs fans in the friendly then every Brentford fan o the first game back, so 12 vs say 50,000 doesn't seem like a massive problem to me. It's sensationalised in the media as its an emotive subject and is no more than clickbait.

Funny how we live in such a racist society that in this country the highest average median wage by ethnicity is firstly British Chinese followed by British Indian and then British mixed. We are not very good at being racist.

It's only the demographics who constantly underperform that complain about racism. Many immigrants do just fine here.

Maybe the rest should look closer to home

 

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View kuge's Profile kuge Flag Peckham 21 Sep 21 12.40pm Send a Private Message to kuge Add kuge as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Exactly which is why I am against taking the knee.*

It's not just racism but all sorts of nasty and illegal stuff such as online stalking, slut shaming, revenge p***. child p*** etc none of which the online providers do enough about.

*Taking the knee is just gesture politics, the players and other celebs have the power if they choose to use it.

For instance start a campaign "Blackout Friday" everybody chooses not to use social media that day led by the players.

However the lack of players threatening to come off social media indicates that they are more concerned about their social media presence and money making than about being serious in tackling the issue.

Taking the knee doesn't get the job done.


I believe that taking the knee is an individual choice. There is being against taking the knee yourself and not wanting other people to do it. The first is entirely legitimate and the second feels like an infringement of the right of players to express a grievance.

I agree that itís not nearly enough. The word gesture is used to suggest that such actions are without conviction. I would disagree about this, what people do with their bodies is powerful. Standing up, sitting down, saluting, hugging, etc all communicate in different ways. Perhaps we could call this action rather than gesture?

Taking a knee was first chosen by Colin Kaepernick to be significant whilst still respectful. Really it is nothing new in intention just form. Often before a match, there will be a minute of clapping or a minute of silence to remember an event or a person. There is, however, little consistency between what is commemorated and what is not. Will we have a minutes silence for Jimmy Greeves on Monday might? Maybe the will at Spurs and Chelsea?

The boycotting of social media for one day a week is an excellent idea. I think, however, that ĎBlackout Fridayí might be misconstrued in the context of racism. The reasons why that players or anyone for that matter engage on social media are wide-ranging. Some will be there for commercial gain but many are seeking to use their fame to attract attention to injustice and inequality.

 

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View rikz's Profile rikz Flag Croydon 21 Sep 21 12.52pm Send a Private Message to rikz Add rikz as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It's only the demographics who constantly underperform that complain about racism. Many immigrants do just fine here.

Maybe the rest should look closer to home

Also blacks are classed as one demographic, If you split them up, you'll see the majority who achieve in school, go to university and are In skilled jobs tend to have African names where as black British and Caribbean boys are up there with white working class males as having the poorest results in school.

So Indians, Chinese and Africans who all tend to come from fairly religious backgrounds that celebrate strong traditional family values and views where they have a two parent household tend to do better hmmmm I wonder why that could be

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Sep 21 1.04pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by rikz

Also blacks are classed as one demographic, If you split them up, you'll see the majority who achieve in school, go to university and are In skilled jobs tend to have African names where as black British and Caribbean boys are up there with white working class males as having the poorest results in school.

So Indians, Chinese and Africans who all tend to come from fairly religious backgrounds that celebrate strong traditional family values and views where they have a two parent household tend to do better hmmmm I wonder why that could be

This seems to be the unavoidable conclusion.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 21 Sep 21 1.09pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Like this you mean?

[Link]

Yes. Between them Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar have C 350m Facebook followers. If all footballers came off social media there would be billions of people involved.

 

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