Is this the same Ken Clarke that, when in government, those now praising him had him as one of the first to go against the wall come the glorious revolution?

Edited by hedgehog50 (02 Feb 2017 10.16am)

David Lammy's Speech:

All too true

"Many members of this House have long believed that the United Kingdom’s interests would be best served outside of the European Union.
They campaigned passionately for what they believe in and in their view we must now leave the European Union – no ifs, no buts and no questions asked.
It would be unfair if I didn’t acknowledge that 52% of those who voted on June 23rd voted to Leave.
The Prime Minister says she wants to deliver a Brexit that works for all and a Brexit that unites our divided country.
I too want to bring this country back together.
Members right across this House will have experienced just how divided the country has become in the months leading up to last June and in the months since.
Young and old. Graduates and non-graduates. The haves and the have nots. City dwellers and those who live in smaller towns and rural communities.
Unprecedented, deep divisions of the kind I have not seen in my lifetime.
But we cannot bring the country back together if we pretend that the country has spoken with one united voice.
People who voted to Leave voted for all sorts of reasons, many of which had absolutely nothing to do with the European Union.
I knocked on doors all over the country, from Hornsey to Huddersfield, and a lot of the Brexit voters I spoke to were actually voting against David Cameron and the Conservative Government.
Some voted for Leave to send a message to Westminster and register a protest vote.
Some said they were fed up with public services stretched to breaking point.
Some said they felt trapped and helpless so they voted for Leave because – as one voter put it to me – “well things can’t get any worse, can they?”
So when the Prime Minister speaks of “the will of the people”, her interpretation is frankly no clearer or more precise that anyone else’s.
Let’s not pretend that the people have spoken, because not all of them have.
Only 2 of the 4 nations that make up the United Kingdom voted to Leave. There was no quadruple lock.
There was no two thirds super-majority – which is common in other countries for a constitutional change of this magnitude.
Even so, we are told that the people have spoken.
Look at what we have allowed ourselves to become.
In a matter of months our public discourse has been consumed by vitriol and abuse. Hate crimes rose 40% in the aftermath of the referendum vote, and we do not yet know what forces our actual departure will unleash.
It is easy to dismiss views with which you disagree if you never actually listen to them at all. If you just dismiss the people who hold them as villains or enemies of the people.
But it is in those terms that we are being asked to rubber stamp a blank cheque for the Government to deliver the most extreme version of Brexit imaginable.
We are being asked to ignore the fact that leaving the European Union will saddle us with a £60 billion divorce bill.
The OBR has forecast that Brexit will cost us another £58 billion over the next 5 years. Where will these cuts fall? We’re not even supposed to ask.
We are not going to get tariff-free access to EU customers whilst rejecting free movement. That is not on the table.
We are not going to get a more favourable trading arrangement with Europe from outside the Single Market. That is a paradox.
We are not going to come to a full agreement with Europe within 2 years. Believing otherwise completely flies in the face of precedent and all evidence.
Exiting without a deal and falling back on World Trade Organisation rules is being talked about as if this is a good option. That is totally wrong. It would be an absolute disaster for this country.
Even on the optimistic assumption that we can sign trade agreements all over the world, this will not even come close to making up for the loss of the single market.
We are facing a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland and a breakdown of the union with Scotland.
We are not reclaiming sovereignty, another promise that falls apart under any scrutiny. We are just transferring it behind the closed doors of negotiating rooms, where other countries will hold a gun to our heads.
But we are being asked to forget about all that.
Our doctors are against Brexit because our health service will collapse without European staff.
Our scientists are against Brexit because they will lose research grants and talented researchers.
Our manufacturers are against it because they will lose tariff-free trade with our biggest market.
Our financial services are against Brexit because they will lose their pass-porting rights.
Our universities are against Brexit because they will lose funding, staff and students.
Our exporters are against Brexit because if we leave the customs union they won’t be able to trade without goods being detained and checked at borders.
But why would we listen to these people – they are only the experts after all.
What happens in the next two years will define the future of our nation for generations.
In everything we have heard so far – the soft Brexit, hard Brexit, clean Brexit, grey Brexit and the red, white and blue Brexit – the Government has shown very little understanding of the huge obstacles they must overcome in the next two years, and even less understanding of the devastating consequences of failure.
We have decided that we are leaving, but it is the EU nations that decide how we leave and what we end up with."

It is the easy option to blame migrants who come here with skills instead of successive Governments – both Conservative and Labour – who have failed.
Failed to educate our own to compete.
Failed to build affordable housing.
Failed to fund our public services.
Failed to ensure that growth is felt outside of London and the South East.
A hard Brexit won’t deal with any of the long-standing, structural problems highlighted by the Brexit vote. It will make them worse.
The real tragedy is that with Whitehall and Parliament so consumed with Brexit for the next 10 years, we will have no capacity to address these problems."

We have decided that we are leaving, but it is the EU nations that decide how we leave and what we end up with."

'the people' have no say at all so wise up people.

Which is why May played the single market card so early (a very brave shout in my opinion). The other nations were going to hold us to ransom using the single market, so straight out she said "we won't stay in the single market" and removed their trump card

Whilst I'm inclined to agree, the other members of any agreement, should have a degree of influence over how other contracted parties break with that agreement.

That said, the EU is a great idea, implemented badly, with increasingly moving goals, away from benefitting the member states, and its citizens, to representing the interested parties that dominate the EU (typically the EU 'lifers' and corporate trade interests).

To say nothing of the 'jobs for the boys' mentality - it seems to be a kind of dustbin for failed politicians and mediocre civil servants.

It's important to remember that the organisation we voted to leave bears absolutely no resemblance to the one we voted to remain in back in 1975.

Au contraire why Mrs May wants to leave the single market and replace it with a new trade deal with the EU I don't know what could be better than what we have now?

Perhaps its a ploy to kick the brexit in the long grass as it adds several years and in the meantime we will be using the single market.

David Lammy's Speech:

All too true

"Many members of this House have long believed that the United Kingdom’s interests would be best served outside of the European Union.
They campaigned passionately for what they believe in and in their view we must now leave the European Union – no ifs, no buts and no questions asked.
It would be unfair if I didn’t acknowledge that 52% of those who voted on June 23rd voted to Leave.
The Prime Minister says she wants to deliver a Brexit that works for all and a Brexit that unites our divided country.
I too want to bring this country back together.
Members right across this House will have experienced just how divided the country has become in the months leading up to last June and in the months since.
Young and old. Graduates and non-graduates. The haves and the have nots. City dwellers and those who live in smaller towns and rural communities.
Unprecedented, deep divisions of the kind I have not seen in my lifetime.
But we cannot bring the country back together if we pretend that the country has spoken with one united voice.
People who voted to Leave voted for all sorts of reasons, many of which had absolutely nothing to do with the European Union.
I knocked on doors all over the country, from Hornsey to Huddersfield, and a lot of the Brexit voters I spoke to were actually voting against David Cameron and the Conservative Government.
Some voted for Leave to send a message to Westminster and register a protest vote.
Some said they were fed up with public services stretched to breaking point.
Some said they felt trapped and helpless so they voted for Leave because – as one voter put it to me – “well things can’t get any worse, can they?”
So when the Prime Minister speaks of “the will of the people”, her interpretation is frankly no clearer or more precise that anyone else’s.
Let’s not pretend that the people have spoken, because not all of them have.
Only 2 of the 4 nations that make up the United Kingdom voted to Leave. There was no quadruple lock.
There was no two thirds super-majority – which is common in other countries for a constitutional change of this magnitude.
Even so, we are told that the people have spoken.
Look at what we have allowed ourselves to become.
In a matter of months our public discourse has been consumed by vitriol and abuse. Hate crimes rose 40% in the aftermath of the referendum vote, and we do not yet know what forces our actual departure will unleash.
It is easy to dismiss views with which you disagree if you never actually listen to them at all. If you just dismiss the people who hold them as villains or enemies of the people.
But it is in those terms that we are being asked to rubber stamp a blank cheque for the Government to deliver the most extreme version of Brexit imaginable.
We are being asked to ignore the fact that leaving the European Union will saddle us with a £60 billion divorce bill.
The OBR has forecast that Brexit will cost us another £58 billion over the next 5 years. Where will these cuts fall? We’re not even supposed to ask.
We are not going to get tariff-free access to EU customers whilst rejecting free movement. That is not on the table.
We are not going to get a more favourable trading arrangement with Europe from outside the Single Market. That is a paradox.
We are not going to come to a full agreement with Europe within 2 years. Believing otherwise completely flies in the face of precedent and all evidence.
Exiting without a deal and falling back on World Trade Organisation rules is being talked about as if this is a good option. That is totally wrong. It would be an absolute disaster for this country.
Even on the optimistic assumption that we can sign trade agreements all over the world, this will not even come close to making up for the loss of the single market.
We are facing a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland and a breakdown of the union with Scotland.
We are not reclaiming sovereignty, another promise that falls apart under any scrutiny. We are just transferring it behind the closed doors of negotiating rooms, where other countries will hold a gun to our heads.
But we are being asked to forget about all that.
Our doctors are against Brexit because our health service will collapse without European staff.
Our scientists are against Brexit because they will lose research grants and talented researchers.
Our manufacturers are against it because they will lose tariff-free trade with our biggest market.
Our financial services are against Brexit because they will lose their pass-porting rights.
Our universities are against Brexit because they will lose funding, staff and students.
Our exporters are against Brexit because if we leave the customs union they won’t be able to trade without goods being detained and checked at borders.
But why would we listen to these people – they are only the experts after all.
What happens in the next two years will define the future of our nation for generations.
In everything we have heard so far – the soft Brexit, hard Brexit, clean Brexit, grey Brexit and the red, white and blue Brexit – the Government has shown very little understanding of the huge obstacles they must overcome in the next two years, and even less understanding of the devastating consequences of failure.
We have decided that we are leaving, but it is the EU nations that decide how we leave and what we end up with."

It is the easy option to blame migrants who come here with skills instead of successive Governments – both Conservative and Labour – who have failed.
Failed to educate our own to compete.
Failed to build affordable housing.
Failed to fund our public services.
Failed to ensure that growth is felt outside of London and the South East.
A hard Brexit won’t deal with any of the long-standing, structural problems highlighted by the Brexit vote. It will make them worse.
The real tragedy is that with Whitehall and Parliament so consumed with Brexit for the next 10 years, we will have no capacity to address these problems."

If we left all decisions to 'the people' this country would still be in the dark ages. Ken Clarke's speech was spot on.