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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 08 Feb 17 10.01pm

The vote offered to parliament as to whether the UK accepts a brexit deal is just that it is not a concession.

It does not mean that if parliament votes no that the UK will go back and try for a better deal it means that the UK is out.

That's at least until tomorrow morning...........


 
hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 09 Feb 17 8.01am

To thee belongs the rural reign;
Thy cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles, thine.

 

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 09 Feb 17 9.17am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

To thee belongs the rural reign;
Thy cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles, thine.

I'd like to teach the world to sing...

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
SeagullHunter Flag Reading 09 Feb 17 9.28am

Originally posted by matt_himself

Greece in the news. Bond holders fear a new crisis:

[Link]

This couldn't come at a worst time for the EU. If things go bad for Greece in the coming weeks, Le Pen and Wilders will gain votes in the upcoming French and Dutch elections. If anti EU parties win in these states, surely the EU federalist project will be dead.

What amazes me is the EU is not offering a vision on the future, just project fear rhetoric and inertia.

Interesting situation in France currently. Half my family are French and was over there for the Christmas period, general sentiment then was that Le Pen was 'too' radical for getting anywhere close in the election. Fast forward a month and a half and it's not as unlikely as some tabloids are touting.

The thing is with the French is that generally they have always been slightly racist, stemming back to when Algerians were targets of abuse - but the difference between them and us is that they are aware of the contribution to the economy. The mainstream media actually highlights the effects on La Defense, their financial centre, which would be extremely hard hit if they were to swing towards the far-right.

I think the problem is that the recent attacks, as well as those that have been quashed over the past few months, are still fresh in the mind of 'less intelligent' voters - which could see a far closer vote than we are all expecting.

RE: Greece - their government is in trouble again, no doubt about it, yields creeping up for the first time since they last went bankrupt.

 

Dont let Cabaye go
Part Time James Flag 09 Feb 17 9.32am

Originally posted by Kermit8

I'd like to teach the world to sing...

Could you teach my wife? She's got a nice voice but she's very loud.

 
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 09 Feb 17 9.37am

Originally posted by Part Time James

Could you teach my wife? She's got a nice voice but she's very loud.

Sure. I voice-coached Janet Street Porter if you need a reference.

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
Part Time James Flag 09 Feb 17 9.43am

Originally posted by Kermit8

Sure. I voice-coached Janet Street Porter if you need a reference.

As long as you're not her dentist, I'm in.

 
.TUX. Flag 09 Feb 17 10.12am

Originally posted by SeagullHunter

Interesting situation in France currently. Half my family are French and was over there for the Christmas period, general sentiment then was that Le Pen was 'too' radical for getting anywhere close in the election. Fast forward a month and a half and it's not as unlikely as some tabloids are touting.

The thing is with the French is that generally they have always been slightly racist, stemming back to when Algerians were targets of abuse - but the difference between them and us is that they are aware of the contribution to the economy. The mainstream media actually highlights the effects on La Defense, their financial centre, which would be extremely hard hit if they were to swing towards the far-right.

I think the problem is that the recent attacks, as well as those that have been quashed over the past few months, are still fresh in the mind of 'less intelligent' voters - which could see a far closer vote than we are all expecting.

RE: Greece - their government is in trouble again, no doubt about it, yields creeping up for the first time since they last went bankrupt.

They've ever been out of it tbf. The tapeworms at Goldman Sachs have seen to that.

 

Buy Litecoin.
Hoof Hearted 09 Feb 17 12.07pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

The ayes have it: 494 to 122, no amendments.

Off to the Lords, then into law.

7th March is the rumoured date.

Mrs Hoof's birthday!

She will be pleased.... she's more of a Brexiteer than I am!

 
davenotamonkey Flag 09 Feb 17 7.09pm

Originally posted by SeagullHunter

Interesting situation in France currently. Half my family are French and was over there for the Christmas period, general sentiment then was that Le Pen was 'too' radical for getting anywhere close in the election. Fast forward a month and a half and it's not as unlikely as some tabloids are touting.

The thing is with the French is that generally they have always been slightly racist, stemming back to when Algerians were targets of abuse - but the difference between them and us is that they are aware of the contribution to the economy. The mainstream media actually highlights the effects on La Defense, their financial centre, which would be extremely hard hit if they were to swing towards the far-right.

I think the problem is that the recent attacks, as well as those that have been quashed over the past few months, are still fresh in the mind of 'less intelligent' voters - which could see a far closer vote than we are all expecting.

RE: Greece - their government is in trouble again, no doubt about it, yields creeping up for the first time since they last went bankrupt.

It genuinely fascinates me how people lazily repeat the same "far right" tropes. Go look at the FN's economic policy, and tell me it's "far-right".

She's in for nationalisation of services, increased social spending, higher-rate tax for the rich, she's anti-capitalist and certainly anti-globalist - taking the view that free trade (and the freedom of movement that often comes with it) has been highly detrimental to France.

But, of course, she also wants strict immigration controls. So she's a Nazi, a fascist, and a far-right politician.

Not even interested in defending her, but the desperation to paint anyone to the right of Corbyn (and she is probably to the left of Obama, as she remarked herself) is.... well, tiring and inaccurate.

As for France itself. It's all hyperbole. Just a few lone-wolves...

[Link]


..cough. Ah, liberté!

 
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 09 Feb 17 7.38pm

^^^^^

Open policy and covert core beliefs can be mutually exclusive, dave. I won't let loose Godwin's Law today but you get the gist.

There is no doubt that a few decades ago the FN was a far-right racist party and unashamedly so and Marine was associated with it and was indeed a member back then. How far it has genuinely moved more toward the centre I don't know but I am not holding my breath.

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
steeleye20 Flag Croydon 09 Feb 17 7.53pm

Fans of the French voting system say it works for the centre against extremes so I think its pretty good.

However the lady must know this and will be softening her stance?

I think her policies will be anything popular.

 
davenotamonkey Flag 09 Feb 17 8.17pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

^^^^^

Open policy and covert core beliefs can be mutually exclusive, dave. I won't let loose Godwin's Law today but you get the gist.

There is no doubt that a few decades ago the FN was a far-right racist party and unashamedly so and Marine was associated with it and was indeed a member back then. How far it has genuinely moved more toward the centre I don't know but I am not holding my breath.


Well, just as well you don't need to hold your breath. There are plenty of resources out there to actually look at the, ahem "open policies" of these parties. You can then judge for yourself if those happen to align with your notion of left or right. I gave you some examples, but they are (of course) trumped (lol) by those er... "covert core" beliefs.

By the way, this used to be how we did politics... before we all got drowned in mass-media agenda-driven BS that literally induces collective squealing over an executive order that the vast majority didn't even take the time to read (as evidenced on here). We used to look at the policies and manifestos. Now we remark on the fine echoes of our twitterbooks and Grauniads (equivalent platforms apply for the other end of the spectrum).

I'm just off to read about the Conservative's "covert core beliefs". I'll be highly disappointed if there's no mention of turnip production and tractor appropriation.

 
davenotamonkey Flag 09 Feb 17 8.22pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Fans of the French voting system say it works for the centre against extremes so I think its pretty good.

However the lady must know this and will be softening her stance?

I think her policies will be anything popular.

As indeed are Macron's - he's selling himself as the populist "anti-establishment" choice, whilst amusingly standing for exactly those establishment principles. I wouldn't be surprised if the French fall for his Blair-style slick image.

 
davenotamonkey Flag 12 Feb 17 12.49pm

It is now "sexist" to find one particular woman unattractive.

[Link]

Brexit-era rabid Labour party: the gift that keeps on giving.

 
nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 13 Feb 17 12.08pm

From Michael Rosen. Very salient points imo.
Well, well, well if ever you wanted an example of what we Marxists call the gap between 'ideology' and 'conditions', this is it! For years, those in power have let it be known that there is something undesirable about immigration. In short, they say that immigrants are a problem - even 'the' problem. If you (the people) are in any way worse off (mentally, emotionally, materially) the fault is immigrants. That's been the story and the press have loved it. We've even had the repeated bogus business of interviewers rushing off and talking solely and obsessively to 'people on the ground' (nearly always old and white) and letting them 'voice their concerns' - ones that the media and government have stirred up over and over and over again even to point of objecting that immigrants speak their own language (what a crime!), practise their own religions (crime again!) and do the lowest paid jobs with the worst conditions whilst simultaneously sponging off 'our' benefits system. All this has been 'ideology' ie a consistent set of untruths, half-truths and a deliberate attempt not to present the whole picture of how immigration supports the kind of economy that the UK has.

Meanwhile, there are the 'material' conditions. That's to say, the organisation and cycle of work, production, distribution, and the making of profits. Quite clearly, immigration has been essential for this in a variety of ways. So there is a gap between what government and press have been saying and what has actually been happening. That's why Cameron talking about 'bringing down the numbers' was always hooey. He would have been told over and over again by employers' organisations (natural supporters of the Tories) that their businesses were only sustainable on the basis that young workers were coming in able and willing to do those jobs.

So now having 'won' the ideological battle: hooray we can 'control our borders' (euphemism for 'keep foreigners out' they're losing the material one ie businesses are short of labour.

This is an extraordinary moment. We'll have to see how serious it is, but a Tory government is going to find it extremely difficult to turn round to an electorate primed up to think that 'bringing down immigration' (or even telling immigrants to 'go home' was and is a 'solution' for something (it isn't), whilst at the same time maintaining the same levels of immigration.

 
Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 13 Feb 17 12.28pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

From Michael Rosen. Very salient points imo.
Well, well, well if ever you wanted an example of what we Marxists call the gap between 'ideology' and 'conditions', this is it! For years, those in power have let it be known that there is something undesirable about immigration. In short, they say that immigrants are a problem - even 'the' problem. If you (the people) are in any way worse off (mentally, emotionally, materially) the fault is immigrants. That's been the story and the press have loved it. We've even had the repeated bogus business of interviewers rushing off and talking solely and obsessively to 'people on the ground' (nearly always old and white) and letting them 'voice their concerns' - ones that the media and government have stirred up over and over and over again even to point of objecting that immigrants speak their own language (what a crime!), practise their own religions (crime again!) and do the lowest paid jobs with the worst conditions whilst simultaneously sponging off 'our' benefits system. All this has been 'ideology' ie a consistent set of untruths, half-truths and a deliberate attempt not to present the whole picture of how immigration supports the kind of economy that the UK has.

Meanwhile, there are the 'material' conditions. That's to say, the organisation and cycle of work, production, distribution, and the making of profits. Quite clearly, immigration has been essential for this in a variety of ways. So there is a gap between what government and press have been saying and what has actually been happening. That's why Cameron talking about 'bringing down the numbers' was always hooey. He would have been told over and over again by employers' organisations (natural supporters of the Tories) that their businesses were only sustainable on the basis that young workers were coming in able and willing to do those jobs.

So now having 'won' the ideological battle: hooray we can 'control our borders' (euphemism for 'keep foreigners out' they're losing the material one ie businesses are short of labour.

This is an extraordinary moment. We'll have to see how serious it is, but a Tory government is going to find it extremely difficult to turn round to an electorate primed up to think that 'bringing down immigration' (or even telling immigrants to 'go home' was and is a 'solution' for something (it isn't), whilst at the same time maintaining the same levels of immigration.

I glazed over when I got to "we Marxists".

 

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 13 Feb 17 12.53pm

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

I glazed over when I got to "we Marxists".

Shame. Still the I didn't read it argument lives on.
[Link]

 
Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 13 Feb 17 12.55pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Shame. Still the I didn't read it argument lives on.
[Link]

Bloggers are benders.

 

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
steeleye20 Flag Croydon 13 Feb 17 1.16pm

Everyone suffers from confirmation bias to a certain extent. It is always easier to spot errors in statements we find disagreeable than it is to find errors in statements we like.

I get confirmation bias must have done it myself often cherry-picking (like us and the EU?) the bits I like to agree with.

I can see that I could be more objective and I will start by stating that virtue signalling is a load of cobblers.

 
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