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jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Aug 17 2.53pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
There is a big gap between Antifa, other far left groups and 'normal people' just like there is a big difference between neo nazis and normal people with concerns about disproportionate criminality, over population and multi culturalism. Yep, but then antifa themselves are a tiny group - most of those protesters turning up aren't going to be members of antifa - They're going to more likely be affiliated with liberal movements, civil rights groups etc. Bit like the old Anti-Nazi league - Most of the people turning up weren't far left at all. Groups like the SWP and Militant were involved as a means to trying to recruit from other groups, by bringing them togeather (its a very left wing thing).
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jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Aug 17 3.01pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
What 'far right'? They are tiny in number and have always been there. As for their 'rise', until the 'rise' of identity politics on the left there was a reduction in their size decade upon decade. Identity politics from one side creates the rise in its opposite. In the US, maybe larger than here. Its important to remember that in the US Prison Gangs and Organised crime networks, the far right are very well represented and its a network that spreads out from criminal organisations into other organisations such as militias and similar groups. Its important to remember that in the US the political system is really about two right wing parties. The Democrats are probably comparable to David Cameron's Conservative Party (on the right) to the Labour Party whilst the Republican moderates wouldn't have been out of place among the traditional conservatives to the far right. Even the very left wing elements of the democrats like Saunders probably have more in common with the Liberal Democrats than say the SWP etc. There are senators and representatives of congress, who would be more comparable to Nick Griffen, rather than Nigel Farage.
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wordup 29 Aug 17 3.02pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yep, but then antifa themselves are a tiny group - most of those protesters turning up aren't going to be members of antifa - They're going to more likely be affiliated with liberal movements, civil rights groups etc. Bit like the old Anti-Nazi league - Most of the people turning up weren't far left at all. Groups like the SWP and Militant were involved as a means to trying to recruit from other groups, by bringing them togeather (its a very left wing thing). If you listened to some on here you'd be forgiven for thinking that the vast majority of those opposing neo nazis are violent antifa thugs, and that neo nazis are poor misguided victims warped by progressives and identity politics. You'll be looking a long time to see a terrorist apologist post from me, whether we're on the topic of muslim or white nationalist extremists. As you rightly said, anyone in their right mind opposes this stuff and thankfully the vast majority of people don't excuse any of this on either side. People need to take responsibility for their own warped behaviour, not be taken seriously when they blame others. Playing favourites with types of terrorists doesn't help. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.
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Stirlingsays 29 Aug 17 3.07pm | |
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Originally posted by wordup
If you listened to some on here you'd be forgiven for thinking that the vast majority of those opposing neo nazis are violent antifa thugs, and that neo nazis are poor misguided victims warped by progressives and identity politics. Any specifics? Originally posted by wordup
Playing favourites with types of terrorists doesn't help. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. Ah, if only. In reality of course 'one person's terrorist is another person's....blah blah and all that stuff.
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Stirlingsays 29 Aug 17 3.11pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
In the US, maybe larger than here. Its important to remember that in the US Prison Gangs and Organised crime networks, the far right are very well represented and its a network that spreads out from criminal organisations into other organisations such as militias and similar groups. Its important to remember that in the US the political system is really about two right wing parties. The Democrats are probably comparable to David Cameron's Conservative Party (on the right) to the Labour Party whilst the Republican moderates wouldn't have been out of place among the traditional conservatives to the far right. Even the very left wing elements of the democrats like Saunders probably have more in common with the Liberal Democrats than say the SWP etc. There are senators and representatives of congress, who would be more comparable to Nick Griffen, rather than Nigel Farage. I'd agree with all of that.....though I regard the conservative party here not to actually be very conservative any more. It's the conservatives who have butchered the forces and it's May who introduced 'hate speech' nonsense.....The part of the right in this country is now mostly a collection of 'wets' that even I....someone who thought Thatcher could have pulled her horns in a bit....regard as far too much a collection of touchy feely wimps for any comfort at all.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Aug 17 4.15pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'd agree with all of that.....though I regard the conservative party here not to actually be very conservative any more. It's the conservatives who have butchered the forces and it's May who introduced 'hate speech' nonsense.....The part of the right in this country is now mostly a collection of 'wets' that even I....someone who thought Thatcher could have pulled her horns in a bit....regard as far too much a collection of touchy feely wimps for any comfort at all. Thatcher was pretty conservative and had some very strong conservatives in her cabinet, but most of them would have been moderates in the Republican party (Thatcher herself voted to legalise homosexuality and even the Clause 28 falls in the more moderate wing of Republicanism - I might not have liked her politics but she could be quite pragmatic - her response to the threat of HIV and AIDS has resulted in a very low level of infection rate in the UK compared to the US (Needle exchange programs, promotion of contraception and barrier methods, and education programs aimed at high risk groups). Politics need more of that kind of pragmatism over ideals. Especially in the US, where reasonableness and factual based policy seems to have become something of an increasing impossibility. Arguably, the failure of successive US governments to do anything about the poor and working classes in the US has created a situation where a statue becomes a flash point in race, rather than say employment, health care, education and pay in deprived areas. The problems of Detroit aren't really based in race, its the product of the migration of the motor industry in pursuit of greater profits.
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Stirlingsays 29 Aug 17 4.50pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Thatcher was pretty conservative and had some very strong conservatives in her cabinet, but most of them would have been moderates in the Republican party (Thatcher herself voted to legalise homosexuality and even the Clause 28 falls in the more moderate wing of Republicanism - I might not have liked her politics but she could be quite pragmatic - her response to the threat of HIV and AIDS has resulted in a very low level of infection rate in the UK compared to the US (Needle exchange programs, promotion of contraception and barrier methods, and education programs aimed at high risk groups). Politics need more of that kind of pragmatism over ideals. Especially in the US, where reasonableness and factual based policy seems to have become something of an increasing impossibility. Arguably, the failure of successive US governments to do anything about the poor and working classes in the US has created a situation where a statue becomes a flash point in race, rather than say employment, health care, education and pay in deprived areas. The problems of Detroit aren't really based in race, its the product of the migration of the motor industry in pursuit of greater profits. In truth this is what the job of real governance should be about... delivering pragmatic solutions to increase living standards generally regardless of what description they apply to themselves. Of course it's fun to proceed along the knockabout of attacking what you don't like in politics but essentially no one ever achieved anything by attacking opponents. Compromise and hard nosed agreements are how real progress is achieved......Alexander only achieved total victory by leveling opponents and unless genocide is your game then accommodation has to be reached....thankfully we don't accept genocide as a possible solution nowadays. Still....none of us on this forum can achieve a hill of beans in terms of our politics....So perhaps there is value in ranting as a way of letting off steam save the serious stuff for those that actually want to engage in it. Trump has turned this on its head for now...but he's a one off and after him things will revert back to their usual....hopefully less polarised and hysterical times.
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Hrolf The Ganger 29 Aug 17 6.05pm | |
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Originally posted by Islington Eagle
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
As they should the far left, zealous liberals, Islamists, religion in general, identity politics, blah blah blah. There is much to be concerned about, not just f***tards who dress up as ghosts and have IQs lower than their shoe size.
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.TUX. 29 Aug 17 6.20pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
In truth this is what the job of real governance should be about... delivering pragmatic solutions to increase living standards generally regardless of what description they apply to themselves. Of course it's fun to proceed along the knockabout of attacking what you don't like in politics but essentially no one ever achieved anything by attacking opponents. Compromise and hard nosed agreements are how real progress is achieved......Alexander only achieved total victory by leveling opponents and unless genocide is your game then accommodation has to be reached....thankfully we don't accept genocide as a possible solution nowadays. Still....none of us on this forum can achieve a hill of beans in terms of our politics....So perhaps there is value in ranting as a way of letting off steam save the serious stuff for those that actually want to engage in it. Trump has turned this on its head for now...but he's a one off and after him things will revert back to their usual....hopefully less polarised and hysterical times.
That'll be a 'fail' then in pretty much every western nation for the past 20yrs.
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Stirlingsays 29 Aug 17 6.27pm | |
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Originally posted by .TUX.
That'll be a 'fail' then in pretty much every western nation for the past 20yrs. Yep, you're right....but that should be what they are there for and what they should be viewing their job as. Personally I rate politicians as far less useful than technology advancements to improving society.....Often they worsen things rather than advance them. Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Aug 2017 7.04pm)
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.TUX. 29 Aug 17 6.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yep, you're right....but that should be what they are there for and what they should be viewing their job as. Personally I rate politicians as far less useful than technology advancements to improving society.....Often then worsen things rather than advance them. Sadly, and despite party colours, this never happens as it's the financial system (along with the many vested interests) that hold the power.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 30 Aug 17 8.29am | |
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Originally posted by Islington Eagle
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
This is a great description of how Soviet Russia 'progressed'. All normal people should be concerned about the rise of the far left.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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