Confederate Statues
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wordup  27 Aug 17 12.04am |
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As White Nationalist in Charlottesville Fired, Police ‘Never Moved’: [Link] Thankfully it only struck close to the counter protester, who was carrying a lit aerosol can, rather than hitting directly. edit: According to reports, the gun appears to jam when he first tries to fire it. He has now been arrested. Edited by wordup (27 Aug 2017 12.14am)
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 27 Aug 17 8.07am |
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Originally posted by wordup
As White Nationalist in Charlottesville Fired, Police ‘Never Moved’: [Link] Thankfully it only struck close to the counter protester, who was carrying a lit aerosol can, rather than hitting directly. edit: According to reports, the gun appears to jam when he first tries to fire it. He has now been arrested. Edited by wordup (27 Aug 2017 12.14am) 'Police never moved' Fascist obviously - come the revolution we will sort them all out comrade.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| legaleagle 27 Aug 17 9.40pm |
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I wonder what some of those on here who make postings about preservation of "heritage" think about the following : 1. Removal of Nazi statues in Germany and Austria post 1945. 2.Removal of statues of Lenin post 1990 in E Europe 3.Removal of statues of Saddam Hussein Iraq 2003
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 Hrolf The Ganger 27 Aug 17 9.56pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
I wonder what some of those on here who make postings about preservation of "heritage" think about the following : 1. Removal of Nazi statues in Germany and Austria post 1945. 2.Removal of statues of Lenin post 1990 in E Europe 3.Removal of statues of Saddam Hussein Iraq 2003
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| Stirlingsays 27 Aug 17 10.42pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
I wonder what some of those on here who make postings about preservation of "heritage" think about the following : 1. Removal of Nazi statues in Germany and Austria post 1945. 2.Removal of statues of Lenin post 1990 in E Europe 3.Removal of statues of Saddam Hussein Iraq 2003 Apples and oranges. There are monuments to German WW2 generals, for example Rommel in Germany. That's far more of a comparison. Lee wasn't treated in anything like the same fashion either...well, until recently by people like you. He was granted amnesty by presidential proclamation, he wasn't arrested nor punished. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Aug 2017 11.19pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matt_himself Matataland 28 Aug 17 7.48am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
I wonder what some of those on here who make postings about preservation of "heritage" think about the following : 1. Removal of Nazi statues in Germany and Austria post 1945. 2.Removal of statues of Lenin post 1990 in E Europe 3.Removal of statues of Saddam Hussein Iraq 2003 Why wasn't the 'conferderate statues' an issue when Obama was in power, Rumpole? Edited by matt_himself (28 Aug 2017 7.49am)
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Kermit8  Hevon 28 Aug 17 9.36am |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Why wasn't the 'conferderate statues' an issue when Obama was in power, Rumpole? Edited by matt_himself (28 Aug 2017 7.49am) The movement and issue's recent nascence began when Obama was in power Matthew. [Link] A white supremacist shooting dead nine innocent African-American churchgoers was always going to get some kind of reaction.
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| matt_himself Matataland 28 Aug 17 9.48am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
The movement and issue's recent nascence began when Obama was in power Matthew. [Link] A white supremacist shooting dead nine innocent African-American churchgoers was always going to get some kind of reaction. No sale, Michael. This is to do with Trump's opponents weaponising something that is not Trump's fault and blaming Trump for it. If Obama had been the second coming you and your ilk believe him to be, despite the fact that he left America and World in a far worse place than he found it when he assumed the presidency, then surely he would have done something about it when he had the chance too. Plus I don't believe the statues were responsible in full or in part for some arsehole shooting people. Just as I don't believe that the arsehole at Buckingham Palace with a sword represents all Muslims. Your position is too polarised and too simplistic.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| legaleagle 28 Aug 17 10.55am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Apples and oranges. There are monuments to German WW2 generals, for example Rommel in Germany. That's far more of a comparison. Lee wasn't treated in anything like the same fashion either...well, until recently by people like you. He was granted amnesty by presidential proclamation, he wasn't arrested nor punished. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Aug 2017 11.19pm)
Your suggestion black people wouldn't have viewed Lee as such a negative symbol until very recently is risible.Lee was indeed pardoned,as were pretty much all Confederates.Not sure that is a reason for honouring them with statues. The statues were largely erected later during the ensuing 100 years by white supremacists as symbols of white supremacy,in the same way as Mississippi adopted a Confederate-like flag in 1894 and Alabama in 1895, during the period when Jim Crow began to rear his racist head. ps. Lenin wasn't arrested or punished either.
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| .TUX. 28 Aug 17 11.35am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Your suggestion black people wouldn't have viewed Lee as such a negative symbol until very recently is risible.Lee was indeed pardoned,as were pretty much all Confederates.Not sure that is a reason for honouring them with statues. The statues were largely erected later during the ensuing 100 years by white supremacists as symbols of white supremacy,in the same way as Mississippi adopted a Confederate-like flag in 1894 and Alabama in 1895, during the period when Jim Crow began to rear his racist head. ps. Lenin wasn't arrested or punished either. Here's one black persons view..... Robert E. Lee’s wartime servant, William Mack Lee – who had been freed 10 years before the war started – said of his master: ''I was raised by one of the greatest men in the world. There was never one born of a woman greater than General Robert E. Lee, according to my judgment''. William Lee accompanied General Lee – or “Marse Robert,” as he called him – throughout the entire war.
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| Stirlingsays 28 Aug 17 11.39am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Your suggestion black people wouldn't have viewed Lee as such a negative symbol until very recently is risible.Lee was indeed pardoned,as were pretty much all Confederates.Not sure that is a reason for honouring them with statues. The statues were largely erected later during the ensuing 100 years by white supremacists as symbols of white supremacy,in the same way as Mississippi adopted a Confederate-like flag in 1894 and Alabama in 1895, during the period when Jim Crow began to rear his racist head. ps. Lenin wasn't arrested or punished either. Well, difficult to punish or arrest Lenin when he died a few years after taking power: silly point. I didn't make the point about how black people should or shouldn't view Lee. My point is that it's ridiculous for you to characterise Lee to other situations in history. It is apples and oranges. He may be a 'nazi' to you and your fellow 'song-sheet' idealogs but the reality is that society isn't made up from just your perspective. Different people see this situation differently and that's what democracy respects. Hence we see the national majority viewpoint on this issue being against your viewpoint. My position has always been that mob rule of any kind is unacceptable. So groups banding together tearing down status are criminals. This isn't war time, this is a democracy. Outside of that any decision the locally elected politicians take is valid. If their electors feel strongly enough about any decision they take they can register that at the ballot box. Your description of what type of people put up this and other status is what misses the point. What matters is how this statue is regarded by those who live with it. The pyramids were elected by hated slave owners as well. There are plenty of statues and famous architecture put up in eras and by people whose views and times we would differ from. History needs to be protected from zealots and idealogs. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Aug 2017 11.39am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 28 Aug 17 3.10pm |
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You perhaps being a prime example of someone approaching matters as a zealot and ideologue but not appreciating it.. Lenin,far from being silly, is a prime example of the point I was making.Regarded as a hated historical figure,when there was political change the statues came down,even though he had died decades earlier.I had no problem with that and doubt you or your supporting cast did either. And,no,I do not regard Lee as a Nazi.. Have you visited the US much? Have you been "down South"? I remember being in a small town in Louisiana,Mamou, in the 90's (that's 1990's not 1890's).A black guy who was a soldier home on leave dared to walk down Main St in his uniform on a Saturday afternoon.A guy went after him with a gun. A few days later,I was in Walker,Louisiana,talking to a English GI Bride who went to the USA.Talking about seeing black people hung from trees for no particular reason. It was a salutary experience. That's a reality that has never died out for many,a reality symbolised by the statues you refer to.A reality symbolised by those who defend such statues. You say you have no problem if local council's vote to remove statues.Did you know that was exactly what happened in Charlottesville? "Earlier this year, the Charlottesville City Council voted to remove its Lee statue from a city park, sparking a lawsuit from opponents of the move. The debate also drew opposition from white supremacists and neo-Nazis who revered Lee and the Confederacy. The opposition resulted in rallies to defend Lee statue...that resulted in at least three deaths. Edited by legaleagle (28 Aug 2017 3.19pm)
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