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February 6 2023 5.19am

Israel / Palestine

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 23 Jul 14 12.45pm

There's a big difference between this incursion into Gaza compared with previous ones. Earlier ones had media blackouts with no journalists being allowed in. This time a lot is being reported through social media which is showing what utter b******s the Israeli forces are being. One shudders to think what unreported atrocities were committed in earlier 'invasions'.

 

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Quote nickgusset at 23 Jul 2014 12.45pm

There's a big difference between this incursion into Gaza compared with previous ones. Earlier ones had media blackouts with no journalists being allowed in. This time a lot is being reported through social media which is showing what utter b******s the Israeli forces are being. One shudders to think what unreported atrocities were committed in earlier 'invasions'.


While Hamas are ethically killing people aii the time.

Yeah, great having a bias isn't it. Makes it all so black and white.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jul 2014 12.53pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View ghosteagle's Profile ghosteagle Flag 23 Jul 14 1.07pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 23 Jul 2014 12.31pm

Quote ghosteagle at 23 Jul 2014 12.18pm

And your bias is with Israel and the IDF. While i value your comments as 'the view from the other side', it is beneath you to try and claim to be objective.

Mmmm...Compared to you on here so far I'd say I'm quite objective.

Still, it's true that I do have a heavy bias towards Israel when it comes to Hamas. That's because I know what Hamas is, its constitution and who its backers are.....I'm western and believe in democracy....Yes to that extent I'm bias.

Israel can vote out this government, whereas Hamas can't be reasoned with due to what they actually are. There can never be peace while they exist politically...Israel are right about this.

Outside of that I do regard myself as objective on the matter.

I don't support this action nor this Israeli government. I don't support west bank settlements nor the lack of support for moderates.

I do support Israel's right to exist because I don't support the alternative. I recognise the injustice in 47. I recognise the huge problem this causes.

I support a two state solution but I recognise the lack of incentive, in real terms, for Israel to set this up......It is a huge risk for them with debatable upside.....The UN would have to be involved heavily....Not the bias lot that currently reside down there.

There is no such thing as 'quite objective'. Israel is not a democracy, it is a racist state, so you don't owe them your allegiance on that basis (Iím sure we already covered this).
Hamas indeed will never recognize the right of Israel to exist, it was created specifically in response to the Israeli occupation and it is the continuance of this illegal occupation that continues to be the best recruiting agent for Hamas.....as Israel well knows. The truth is, if Israel were primarily committed to reducing the rocket attacks and keeping its civilians safe it would return the land it has stolen thus reducing support for Hamas. Of course, Israelís main priority is the destruction of Palestine and to counter the threat of a two state solution to the middle-east crises so it uses any excuse to act militarily, raise tensions and round and round we go......

 

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View Seth's Profile Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 23 Jul 14 2.06pm Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 23 Jul 2014 12.37pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 12.30pm

This whole thread makes you an apologist for IDF/Israeli war crimes and civilian murder.

You're doing your best to argue your point but your position is becoming more and more untenable as each day and war crime goes by.

It's interesting you have been left to argue the pro-Israel position alone on the thread. None of the other usual suspects have come to back you up.

I wonder why that is?


Maybe they work Seth.

I'm currently off being a teacher.

I'm not an apologist for war crimes. The fact that civilians die on the front line is just a reality of war.

Lets make it clear....Unlike you sanctioning the firing of rockets into Israel...If I remember correctly.

I would support the prosecution of IDF where they deliberately kill non Hamas, where it is proven.


We'll see if they come on later.

Let me be clear, I do not condone the targeting of civilians by Hamas or anyone else, under any circumstances I do, however, support the Palestinians' right to resist Israel's blockade, oppression and occupation and I completely understand that in their far weaker military position, they are going to do whatever they can to fight back.

And when their civilians are being killed daily, it's hardly surprising they try to take revenge.

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Quote ghosteagle at 23 Jul 2014 1.07pm

There is no such thing as 'quite objective'.


Depends upon how strict you wish to be. I meant outside of Israel/Hamas I'm objective.

Quote ghosteagle at 23 Jul 2014 1.07pm

Israel is not a democracy, it is a racist state, so you don't owe them your allegiance on that basis (Iím sure we already covered this).


We covered it and didn't agree and still don't. I checked out your sources. No society is perfect...All societies are racist...so it's a moot observation....It's about extent and legal status.

To a certain extent Palestinians are going to be subject to suspicion. Still, I think your black and white statement is massively over the top.

Quote ghosteagle at 23 Jul 2014 1.07pm

Hamas indeed will never recognize the right of Israel to exist, it was created specifically in response to the Israeli occupation and it is the continuance of this illegal occupation that continues to be the best recruiting agent for Hamas.....as Israel well knows.

I think we all know that is a possibility. Each side has extremists and those that can't accept any peace. While they hold power no moves will ever progress towards a two state solution.....That would be a shame but I know that many in Israel and Hamas are quite willing for that to happen.

That means that this conflict will either end in a genocidal massacre or continue as is on a generational basis until the political environment changes.

Iran and/or Saudi the US might change their positions but this is pie in the sky.

Quote ghosteagle at 23 Jul 2014 1.07pm

The truth is, if Israel were primarily committed to reducing the rocket attacks and keeping its civilians safe it would return the land it has stolen thus reducing support for Hamas. Of course, Israelís main priority is the destruction of Palestine and to counter the threat of a two state solution to the middle-east crises so it uses any excuse to act militarily, raise tensions and round and round we go......


The IDF could wipe the Palestinians out in a matter of weeks if it really seek their destruction. They know that it isn't practically possible for multiple reasons.

Israel does need to return land in the west bank and the two state solution needs a viable Palestinians state which also requires concessions that are risky for them.

We use one word terms but we know that it's 'the right' in Israel I agree with you that they aren't interested in this possibility of a two state solution....Not with Hamas in power anyway.....Anyway a two state solution is a massive risk for Israel and could backfire on them.

Still there are representatives on both sides who could led their groups back to the table.

But conditions are a long way removed from that right now.


Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jul 2014 2.32pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 Jul 14 2.29pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.06pm

We'll see if they come on later.

Let me be clear, I do not condone the targeting of civilians by Hamas or anyone else, under any circumstances I do, however, support the Palestinians' right to resist Israel's blockade, oppression and occupation and I completely understand that in their far weaker military position, they are going to do whatever they can to fight back.

And when their civilians are being killed daily, it's hardly surprising they try to take revenge.


If you read the thread you'll see lots of counters to these 'usual suspects' arguments.

So you say that you understand it but don't support it......Well, I suppose I'd agree with that.

Upon the basis that I also understand why Hitler invaded France but that I didn't support that either.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Seth's Profile Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 23 Jul 14 2.36pm Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 23 Jul 2014 2.29pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.06pm

We'll see if they come on later.

Let me be clear, I do not condone the targeting of civilians by Hamas or anyone else, under any circumstances I do, however, support the Palestinians' right to resist Israel's blockade, oppression and occupation and I completely understand that in their far weaker military position, they are going to do whatever they can to fight back.

And when their civilians are being killed daily, it's hardly surprising they try to take revenge.


If you read the thread you'll see lots of counters to these 'usual suspects' arguments.

So you say that you understand it but don't support it......Well, I suppose I'd agree with that.

Upon the basis that I also understand why Hitler invaded France but that I didn't support that either.


Not that kind of understanding, as well you know.

Anyway there's no point in us arguing about this any more. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours so I'll refrain from responding to you on this thread for now.

Let's hope a just peace ensues, however unlikely that seems now.

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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View Cucking Funt's Profile Cucking Funt Flag Eggefahrt 23 Jul 14 2.42pm Send a Private Message to Cucking Funt Add Cucking Funt as a friend

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.36pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 23 Jul 2014 2.29pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.06pm

We'll see if they come on later.

Let me be clear, I do not condone the targeting of civilians by Hamas or anyone else, under any circumstances I do, however, support the Palestinians' right to resist Israel's blockade, oppression and occupation and I completely understand that in their far weaker military position, they are going to do whatever they can to fight back.

And when their civilians are being killed daily, it's hardly surprising they try to take revenge.


If you read the thread you'll see lots of counters to these 'usual suspects' arguments.

So you say that you understand it but don't support it......Well, I suppose I'd agree with that.

Upon the basis that I also understand why Hitler invaded France but that I didn't support that either.


Not that kind of understanding, as well you know.

Anyway there's no point in us arguing about this any more. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours so I'll refrain from responding to you on this thread for now.

Let's hope a just peace ensues, however unlikely that seems now.


Between you and Stirling?

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 23 Jul 14 2.47pm

Quote Cucking Funt at 23 Jul 2014 2.42pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.36pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 23 Jul 2014 2.29pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.06pm

We'll see if they come on later.

Let me be clear, I do not condone the targeting of civilians by Hamas or anyone else, under any circumstances I do, however, support the Palestinians' right to resist Israel's blockade, oppression and occupation and I completely understand that in their far weaker military position, they are going to do whatever they can to fight back.

And when their civilians are being killed daily, it's hardly surprising they try to take revenge.


If you read the thread you'll see lots of counters to these 'usual suspects' arguments.

So you say that you understand it but don't support it......Well, I suppose I'd agree with that.

Upon the basis that I also understand why Hitler invaded France but that I didn't support that either.


Not that kind of understanding, as well you know.

Anyway there's no point in us arguing about this any more. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours so I'll refrain from responding to you on this thread for now.

Let's hope a just peace ensues, however unlikely that seems now.


Between you and Stirling?

You could act like ACAS Dermot...

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 Jul 14 2.51pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.36pm


Not that kind of understanding, as well you know.

Anyway there's no point in us arguing about this any more. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours so I'll refrain from responding to you on this thread for now.

Let's hope a just peace ensues, however unlikely that seems now.

Well, I suspect that you do support the firing of rockets but just chose a phrase that lets you move away from the implications of that.....Maybe that's wrong, only you know.

I suppose you either support Hamas firing rockets or you don't. I don't support an Israel ground invasion being in Gaza fighting this pointless action...Hamas hide in amongst their supporters and civilians...Too messy...But I do support Israel targeting Hamas members.

Respond if you want mate.....We signed our peace agreement.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Seth's Profile Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 23 Jul 14 3.07pm Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Quote Cucking Funt at 23 Jul 2014 2.42pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.36pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 23 Jul 2014 2.29pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.06pm

We'll see if they come on later.

Let me be clear, I do not condone the targeting of civilians by Hamas or anyone else, under any circumstances I do, however, support the Palestinians' right to resist Israel's blockade, oppression and occupation and I completely understand that in their far weaker military position, they are going to do whatever they can to fight back.

And when their civilians are being killed daily, it's hardly surprising they try to take revenge.


If you read the thread you'll see lots of counters to these 'usual suspects' arguments.

So you say that you understand it but don't support it......Well, I suppose I'd agree with that.

Upon the basis that I also understand why Hitler invaded France but that I didn't support that either.


Not that kind of understanding, as well you know.

Anyway there's no point in us arguing about this any more. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours so I'll refrain from responding to you on this thread for now.

Let's hope a just peace ensues, however unlikely that seems now.


Between you and Stirling?


Me & Stirling are cool now. We went to the UN and they said I was in the right and he was in the wrong and we both just accepted it and moved on.

Diplomacy can be SO satisfying sometimes

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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View Seth's Profile Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 23 Jul 14 3.09pm Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 23 Jul 2014 2.51pm

Quote Seth at 23 Jul 2014 2.36pm


Not that kind of understanding, as well you know.

Anyway there's no point in us arguing about this any more. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours so I'll refrain from responding to you on this thread for now.

Let's hope a just peace ensues, however unlikely that seems now.

Well, I suspect that you do support the firing of rockets but just chose a phrase that lets you move away from the implications of that.....Maybe that's wrong, only you know.

I suppose you either support Hamas firing rockets or you don't. I don't support an Israel ground invasion being in Gaza fighting this pointless action...Hamas hide in amongst their supporters and civilians...Too messy...But I do support Israel targeting Hamas members.

Respond if you want mate.....We signed our peace agreement.

Suspect all you want buddy. Like I said, I don't support civilians being killed but understand the Palestinian desire to strike back at a regime which oppresses them on a daily basis and has no compunction in killing their women and children.

Damn, I just responded

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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