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September 22 2019 9.32pm

Venezuela - socialist paradise

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NickRobinson Flag 09 Dec 15 7.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

You are merely trying to redefine socialism. The core of socialism is taking into public ownership (actually running things really badly by an inefficient state bureaucracy not remotely owned by the public) all means of production, distribution and exchange.

You then say that countries that have a health service are partially socialist. Saudia Arabia and Israel have what amounts to National Health Services - do you regard those countries as socialist?

 

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Hard Brexit 09 Dec 15 9.53pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 5.03pm

Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 3.25pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.


Michael, what you say is ill informed and largely based on assumption rather than anything with merit.

Having a social welfare programme is different from being socialist. This is what you plainly do not see, or want to see. For example, One Nation politics is capitalism with social welfare built in not with a 'bit' of socialism.

I fail to see how you can be a 'bit' socialist. Socialism is an ideology seeking control of markets. All of the countries you mention are free market economies running social welfare programmes.

What does a 'bit' socialist mean? It's like saying someone is a bit gay, it is meaningless and disingenuous.

What you are trying to do is convince yourself that some sort of 'third way', as espoused by Tony Blair and French politicians exists which provides the best of both Worlds. It doesn't and won't happen.

Cue a s*** load of years old internet links provided to back up your spurious 'thoughts'.


You are way too narrow minded and vitriol-infused against anything - even the good - that has emanated from the leftist side of politics over the last century or so to have a proper discussion with Matthew. And have been for a while. Whether it's this subject or Israel or Somalis/Immigration, etc, I can't work out if it is just your sheer intellectual stubborness in order to blank out the things that challenge fairly your way of thinking or, possibly, part paranoia.

Michael, I gave you a critique of where your politics was misguided.

You, to quote one of your chums, went for the man not the ball.

Sadly, you do this all too often because, as I said above, your posts are mostly self deluded bulls***.

With the time you have on your hands, you would have thought that you could research your 'opinion' a bit more before posting.

 


"The real question is, at the end of the day, do we want to run our country? Are we proud of who we are? Are we happy to be just a star on somebody else's flag, or do we want to be an independent nation? - Nigel Farage

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 11 Dec 15 9.15am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 9.53pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 5.03pm

Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 3.25pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.


Michael, what you say is ill informed and largely based on assumption rather than anything with merit.

Having a social welfare programme is different from being socialist. This is what you plainly do not see, or want to see. For example, One Nation politics is capitalism with social welfare built in not with a 'bit' of socialism.

I fail to see how you can be a 'bit' socialist. Socialism is an ideology seeking control of markets. All of the countries you mention are free market economies running social welfare programmes.

What does a 'bit' socialist mean? It's like saying someone is a bit gay, it is meaningless and disingenuous.

What you are trying to do is convince yourself that some sort of 'third way', as espoused by Tony Blair and French politicians exists which provides the best of both Worlds. It doesn't and won't happen.

Cue a s*** load of years old internet links provided to back up your spurious 'thoughts'.


You are way too narrow minded and vitriol-infused against anything - even the good - that has emanated from the leftist side of politics over the last century or so to have a proper discussion with Matthew. And have been for a while. Whether it's this subject or Israel or Somalis/Immigration, etc, I can't work out if it is just your sheer intellectual stubborness in order to blank out the things that challenge fairly your way of thinking or, possibly, part paranoia.

Michael, I gave you a critique of where your politics was misguided.

You, to quote one of your chums, went for the man not the ball.

Sadly, you do this all too often because, as I said above, your posts are mostly self deluded bulls***.

With the time you have on your hands, you would have thought that you could research your 'opinion' a bit more before posting.


If you want to continue being obtuse and believe that the nations mentioned have no influence from socialist thinking in their day to day running then be my guest.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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View palace777's Profile palace777 Flag belfast 11 Dec 15 9.24am Send a Private Message to palace777 Add palace777 as a friend

Quote chris123 at 04 Nov 2015 7.11am

Quote Bert the Head at 03 Nov 2015 11.29pm

Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 2.40am

Economy in worst state since the 1940's:

[Link]

Viva la revolution!


"While the current crisis is largely down to the plummet in oil price" is a bit of the story you over looked. Its also a free paper and you you get what you pay for when it comes to news.

Also there are a number of countries where the poor are much worse off but because they follow Capitalism no one points the finger. The infant mortality rate, for example. is lower in Venezuela than in Paraguay and so is absolute poverty. No one complains about poverty in Paraguay though. Perhaps City AM will publish a story on Paraguay as another example of capitalism failing?

There are hundreds of countries in the world that follow Capitalism but are dirt poor yet the system itself is never questioned.


Paraquay has loo rolls.

Bloddy good singer!


Edited by Bert the Head (03 Nov 2015 11.29pm)



 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 11 Dec 15 9.36am

Quote NickRobinson at 09 Dec 2015 7.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

You are merely trying to redefine socialism. The core of socialism is taking into public ownership (actually running things really badly by an inefficient state bureaucracy not remotely owned by the public) all means of production, distribution and exchange.

You then say that countries that have a health service are partially socialist. Saudia Arabia and Israel have what amounts to National Health Services - do you regard those countries as socialist?

Socialism needs and should redefine itself in line with modern developments and changes, and there is nothing wrong with that - It vital for all society to redefine its concepts as society changes and evolves (what Foucault describes as Discourse Resolution). That's the problem with Religion, a tendency to look back at particular texts.

Harking back to just Karl Marx is a failure to understand the importance of history and social development.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Hard Brexit 21 May 16 7.14am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Venezuela is in melt down. Food shortages, lack of basic services and a totalitarian paranoid hard left regime refusing to bend:

[Link]

Vote Corbyn and this is what you will get.

Interesting that all the media leftie luvvies have ceased their support for Venezuela:

[Link]

 


"The real question is, at the end of the day, do we want to run our country? Are we proud of who we are? Are we happy to be just a star on somebody else's flag, or do we want to be an independent nation? - Nigel Farage

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 May 16 9.20am

Originally posted by matt_himself

Venezuela is in melt down. Food shortages, lack of basic services and a totalitarian paranoid hard left regime refusing to bend:

[Link]

Vote Corbyn and this is what you will get.

Interesting that all the media leftie luvvies have ceased their support for Venezuela:

[Link]

Really? Whaddaloadabull.

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 21 May 16 9.37am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Venezuela is in melt down. Food shortages, lack of basic services and a totalitarian paranoid hard left regime refusing to bend:

[Link]

Vote Corbyn and this is what you will get.

Interesting that all the media leftie luvvies have ceased their support for Venezuela:

[Link]

They have the largest oil reserves in the world and a population of 30 million. It should be one of the most prosperous countries on the planet.

 

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Hard Brexit 21 May 16 9.51am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

Really? Whaddaloadabull.

Corbyn and Chavez share the same politics, the same economics and both believe in state intervention. Worryingly, Chavez destroyed democracy and moved the country towards leftish fascism.

How can you say what you say? Corbyn will wreck this country if he was given the chance, just like Chavez and Maduro have done to Venezuela.

Venezuela is a prime example of the dangers of socialism. Ignore it at your peril.

 


"The real question is, at the end of the day, do we want to run our country? Are we proud of who we are? Are we happy to be just a star on somebody else's flag, or do we want to be an independent nation? - Nigel Farage

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 May 16 9.58am

Originally posted by matt_himself

Corbyn and Chavez share the same politics, the same economics and both believe in state intervention. Worryingly, Chavez destroyed democracy and moved the country towards leftish fascism.

How can you say what you say? Corbyn will wreck this country if he was given the chance, just like Chavez and Maduro have done to Venezuela.

Venezuela is a prime example of the dangers of socialism. Ignore it at your peril.

Venezuela is a prime example of an economy that relies on a commodity of which the value has crashed due to circumstances beyond its control.

 

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Hoof Hearted 21 May 16 10.02am

No arguing today lads......

Get behind Palace!

 

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View Superfly's Profile Superfly Flag The sun always shines in Catford 21 May 16 12.55pm Send a Private Message to Superfly Add Superfly as a friend

I hate Venezuela

Ruined the South African World cup

 


Lend me a Tenor

31 May to 3 June 2017

John McIntosh Arts Centre
London Oratory School
SW6 1RX

with Superfly in the chorus
[Link]

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