The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 CambridgeEagle  Sydenham 17 Oct 17 1.22pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The ends do not justify the means because the ends are never met. You don't 'defeat' concepts in a democracy. You have different groups and you argue your position.....The most popular ideas will succeed in the marketplace of ideas. Unless society has broken down....that's how we do it. You lock up or if you can deport the mostly men of violence who believe that force should be used to achieve political dominance.
Assuming a perfect market for ideas.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 17 Oct 17 1.24pm |
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Originally posted by pefwin
He knows what he is saying and he is disgusting. I note the Fascists have totally ignored my point on fighting Franco but you know in the 1930s which side they would have been on. Why is it disgusting? Communists use concentration camps to kill their opponents. It is a valid reference.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Jimenez  SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 17 Oct 17 1.24pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
A war between fascists and communists? The soviets backed the communists and Hitler and Mussolini backed the fascists. I would have stayed out of it and moved. I'm a democrat. That said, I've read that most democrats who were there fought on the communists side....Orwell did...though he quickly became disillusioned with the communists...So if I were forced to I would have fought for them rather than Franco. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Oct 2017 1.22pm) In fairness you probably would of fought for the side who were going to line you up against the wall & shoot you. Years ago I worked with a guy who's father was Lithuanian & he fought for the Nazis, he had no choice.
Pro USA & Israel |
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 17 Oct 17 1.28pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
Assuming a perfect market for ideas.
In an attempt to get back to matters on the mess at hand - OECD have pointed out that "that steep falls in the UK’s productivity performance relative to other major economies alied with the failure of its export industries to grab a slice of expanding world trade have left it in a weak position to operate outside the EU." The UK is wholly unfit to be embarking on the kind of ramshackle Brexit being championed by the more hardline elements of the Tory party. They are representing no one but themselves and their financial backers. The problems in our economy mean that this kind of Brexit is going to be worse than it would have been even with a strong economy. The economy needs fixing and Brexit could be managed in a way that would help heal some of the underlying problems. Tory mismanagement is making this impossible and is on the way to creating a poorer, more unequal and unfairer society post Brexit.
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| Stirlingsays Online 17 Oct 17 1.31pm |
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Originally posted by Jimenez
In fairness you probably would of fought for the side who were going to line you up against the wall & shoot you. Years ago I worked with a guy who's father was Lithuanian & he fought for the Nazis, he had no choice. That's true of course but if he's going to ask a question of choice I suppose I had to think about it.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays Online 17 Oct 17 1.33pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
Assuming a perfect market for ideas.
As long as you have a democracy protecting non violent freedom of speech it should work. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Oct 2017 1.33pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 17 Oct 17 1.44pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
As long as you have a democracy protecting non violent freedom of speech it should work. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Oct 2017 1.33pm) How are ideas disseminated? Is information symmetric and perfect? Are ideas understood by all to mean the same thing? Are ideas and their understanding based on rational decision making? The marketplace for ideas is dominated by those who have the platform to broadcast those ideas to the public (media outlets). Perception of ideas is often based on biases. Information is often anything but perfect and in fact spun or biased. People are rarely rational.
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| Stirlingsays Online 17 Oct 17 1.54pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
How are ideas disseminated? Is information symmetric and perfect? Are ideas understood by all to mean the same thing? Are ideas and their understanding based on rational decision making? The marketplace for ideas is dominated by those who have the platform to broadcast those ideas to the public (media outlets). Perception of ideas is often based on biases. Information is often anything but perfect and in fact spun or biased. People are rarely rational. It is for the individual to decide all of those value judgements.......What are you proposing?....that 'elites' do? There is no such physical thing as perfection...efficiency as a metric yes..perfection no. We have popular and less popular....good enough and not so good. That's why the marketplace of ideas works, because it's about which ideas can gain the most support. Systems that don't work can be overthrown by more popular systems that work better.....because the overall infrastructure of majority consensus is maintained. The marketplace of ideas only breaks down when the infrastructure of majority consensus is no longer maintained.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 17 Oct 17 1.59pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It is for the individual to decide all of those value judgements.......What are you proposing....that 'elites' do. There is no such physical thing as perfection. We have popular and less popular....good enough and not so good. That's why the marketplace of ideas works, because it's about which ideas can gain the most support. Systems that don't work can be overthrown by more popular systems that work better.....because the overall infrastructure of majority consensus is maintained. The marketplace of ideas only breaks down when the infrastructure of majority consensus is no longer maintained. No I'm just saying that the best ideas won't always win. It's more likely that the best presented ones will and the ones backed by those with most influence. Ideas contrary to their own personal interests may well be suppressed. While in theory you're right, we don't live in a theoretical world. Individuals don't decide whether information is perfect or how much air time any one particular idea gets. That's done very much without such health warnings or admission of vested interests.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 17 Oct 17 2.06pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Yes defeat fascism by any means necessary. Your (no doubt typed from memory quote) highlights this. Why don't you think people should want to stop fascists? Edited by nickgusset (17 Oct 2017 11.53am) I don't think about stopping fascists. I don't think about fascists at all. You are just an obsessed loon. You have more in common with them than you think.
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| Stirlingsays Online 17 Oct 17 2.13pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
No I'm just saying that the best ideas won't always win. It's more likely that the best presented ones will and the ones backed by those with most influence. Ideas contrary to their own personal interests may well be suppressed. I'm saying that the best ideas should always win popularity......If they don't prove to be good enough the system allows for them to be removed and different ideas to be tried. In a system, without suppression of non violent ideas, where you are allowed to express ideas the 'presentation' is down to that particular group...as for any other....sure some ideas are backed by interests but that can only go so far without force. Which ideas are you saying aren't given airtime? Also I think you are regarding people as fools, over a population, if you think they go against their personal interest....that's a value judgement. Ukip came from nowhere and had very little airtime compared to more popular parties. How much airtime did Marxism get?.....Trade unionsism get? Ideas grow because there is a marketplace for them within the environment. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Oct 2017 2.17pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 Oct 17 2.14pm |
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Originally posted by europalace
Wow, another one who seems bitter and jealous, admitting it by resorting to expletives. Game, set & match? Candy from a baby anyone? YOU SURE ARE!!
Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky. |
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