The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Stirlingsays  23 Sep 18 11.42pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Switzerland is having another referendum today this happens on a regular basis on all sorts of matters. I rather like the idea because it goes back to the roots of democracy. The Athenians would gather in the town square and would vote on the issue of the day they didn't have political parties. That is true democracy. Granted most people don't have the time or inclination to devote to understand the issues so we have representatives. The problem is when they go off message and against the wishes of the people. If a MP switches parties he should be forced into a by election after all what the people thought they were voting for is no longer true. I am probably in a minority but I would allow the people to hold a referendum on any subject as long as they obtain enough signatures. This will never happen though because the establishment like to keep power amongst themselves. Politicians like to say we live in a democracy but that is not correct in the true sense of the word as I explain above. More accurately I believe we live in a oligarchy (Rule by a small powerful elite) or as The Who sang "Meet the new boss same as the old boss". Enough rambling I am off to bed. Yep....rule by oligarchy.....that's why Brexit is so hated by so many of the t*ssers who don't have to live working class lifestyles. The political oligarchy want their carefully stitched up system to continue....most people don't even know the name of their Mps let alone have a say on their parliamentary votes. Party controlled democracies.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 24 Sep 18 10.11am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Switzerland is having another referendum today this happens on a regular basis on all sorts of matters. I rather like the idea because it goes back to the roots of democracy. The Athenians would gather in the town square and would vote on the issue of the day they didn't have political parties. That is true democracy. Granted most people don't have the time or inclination to devote to understand the issues so we have representatives. The problem is when they go off message and against the wishes of the people. If a MP switches parties he should be forced into a by election after all what the people thought they were voting for is no longer true. I am probably in a minority but I would allow the people to hold a referendum on any subject as long as they obtain enough signatures. This will never happen though because the establishment like to keep power amongst themselves. Politicians like to say we live in a democracy but that is not correct in the true sense of the word as I explain above. More accurately I believe we live in a oligarchy (Rule by a small powerful elite) or as The Who sang "Meet the new boss same as the old boss". Enough rambling I am off to bed. An enjoyable ramble B.
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 24 Sep 18 12.25pm |
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We all know Brexit means Brexit. I am quite happy to have a second referendum when we know what it really means. I don't necessary think it will change the result albiet the Governments cluster f*** of a negotiation. It does make me wonder why some of the no deal people are so against the idea. It would put a solid gold seal around never going back.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Sep 18 12.39pm |
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Originally posted by pefwin
We all know Brexit means Brexit. I am quite happy to have a second referendum when we know what it really means. I don't necessary think it will change the result albiet the Governments cluster f*** of a negotiation. It does make me wonder why some of the no deal people are so against the idea. It would put a solid gold seal around never going back. Well, I'm not. We have decided to leave.
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| pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 24 Sep 18 1.31pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Well, I'm not. We have decided to leave. that was years ago when we were told £350mn a week for the NHS and all non English would leave.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 24 Sep 18 1.46pm |
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In some countries Switzerland Italy etc. they have referendums about once a month, mainly to nullify the result of the previous referendum. A referendum is actually democratic, and a government should never call one in that case, look what has happened here. A general election is definitely not democratic, in our case less than half a million votes decide who the next incumbent is. The result of the referendum was narrowly yes in this case, but the result is really a victory for referendums. They can be held at any time in the future to over-turn this, so there is no leaving with certainty. Attlee and Thatcher, our most notable post-war leaders had in right about referendums IMO.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 24 Sep 18 2.07pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
In some countries Switzerland Italy etc. they have referendums about once a month, mainly to nullify the result of the previous referendum. A referendum is actually democratic, and a government should never call one in that case, look what has happened here. A general election is definitely not democratic, in our case less than half a million votes decide who the next incumbent is. The result of the referendum was narrowly yes in this case, but the result is really a victory for referendums. They can be held at any time in the future to over-turn this, so there is no leaving with certainty. Attlee and Thatcher, our most notable post-war leaders had in right about referendums IMO. McDonald has called for a GE and if that is not on the cards then Labour will vote against the deal / no deal that Mrs May does but not against Brexit. Interestingly Labour are as muddled as the Tories on this and for both parties you get the answer you want depending on who you talk to.
One more point |
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| Wisbech Eagle Online Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 18 2.48pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
We have had majorities in our parliament that voted for many things you probably don't like....like banning homosexuality and probably many other things. Politicians are corrupt and sucking on the EU teat ensures a lot of them a crack on the gravy train later. Essentially.....You appear to be saying that you only want democracy if it's the only chance to get your way. Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Sep 2018 11.38pm) If our representatives, having studied the issue, decide then we should accept it. You don't have to agree with it and can campaign to elect a group of other representatives but it's the MP's job to decide these things. Ours is to choose them. This is even more important now because of the way that people are being influenced by social media. MI6 told Mrs May that the Brexit vote was not "free or fair" and recommended that it be redone, because of the Russian interference in the process. With it being known that the Russians also influenced the 2016 US Presidential election and interfered in both France and Italy it must now be obvious that we need to consign referendums to history as untrustworthy. Criticising the party system and trying to find ways to improve it so that it becomes more genuinely representative is a totally separate issue. I believe our current system is broken and we desperately need a new party of the centre, but that's just my own opinion. Parliament did not make a deal with Hitler! It chose a man to lead a multi party government, and the country, united in common cause. I can only imagine what the result of a referendum then would have been if the people had been asked whether they wanted to go to war with Germany again. When parliament banned homosexuality most of the country, including probably me, would have agreed. We are wiser now, better informed and more understanding as a society. That's the evolution of ideas at work, which is what parliament can lead. The people tend to follow and lag behind. Referendums therefore delay progress.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Mstrobez 24 Sep 18 3.31pm |
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You know what’s a bigger threat to the country than economic downturn? Division. The number one issue in this country at the moment is division. I voted to remain, but the idea that you give people a vote and then drop the “it was only advisory” BS because you don’t like the result is utterly absurd. And the people pushing for it are as unreasonable and toxic as the ultra-wing of Brexiters they claim to abhor. They have no interest in trying to unify the country whatsoever. It’s f*** the implications, civil unrest & taking a democratically appointed decision away from millions of people - reverse Brexit or go to hell. And for those reasons alone, if there was another EU referendum tomorrow, I’d vote to leave. Not to stand with the disaster capitalists or the Dickheads who blame all the countries problems on immigrants. But to stand for democracy.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 24 Sep 18 3.45pm |
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Originally posted by Mstrobez
You know what’s a bigger threat to the country than economic downturn? Division. The number one issue in this country at the moment is division. I voted to remain, but the idea that you give people a vote and then drop the “it was only advisory” BS because you don’t like the result is utterly absurd. And the people pushing for it are as unreasonable and toxic as the ultra-wing of Brexiters they claim to abhor. They have no interest in trying to unify the country whatsoever. It’s f*** the implications, civil unrest & taking a democratically appointed decision away from millions of people - reverse Brexit or go to hell. And for those reasons alone, if there was another EU referendum tomorrow, I’d vote to leave. Not to stand with the disaster capitalists or the Dickheads who blame all the countries problems on immigrants. But to stand for democracy. Because democracy peaked in 2016? We had a vote on this in 1975 and then Cameron held another vote which clearly didn't respect the result of that democratic exercise, despite that one having a much greater majority. At what point are you allowed to change your mind then? Ireland held a vote twice on the Lisbon treaty and this was generally very well conducted as it provided a general mood/instruction, then significant work and research was done to inform the public and formulate a position and then the public was reengaged on a more specific question and they gave a clear answer. More recently the GFA was based on referendums, however Rees-Mogg et al are saying it's had it's day and should be sacrificed on the alter of high Brexithood. Are we really saying we can no longer exercise judgement as a people or change our minds or vote on something more than once? Are we saying our democracy now diminishes and we shouldn't be allowed to vote again on Brexit or any related matter? Ridiculous.
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| Mstrobez 24 Sep 18 4.01pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
Because democracy peaked in 2016? We had a vote on this in 1975 and then Cameron held another vote which clearly didn't respect the result of that democratic exercise, despite that one having a much greater majority. At what point are you allowed to change your mind then? Ireland held a vote twice on the Lisbon treaty and this was generally very well conducted as it provided a general mood/instruction, then significant work and research was done to inform the public and formulate a position and then the public was reengaged on a more specific question and they gave a clear answer. More recently the GFA was based on referendums, however Rees-Mogg et al are saying it's had it's day and should be sacrificed on the alter of high Brexithood. Are we really saying we can no longer exercise judgement as a people or change our minds or vote on something more than once? Are we saying our democracy now diminishes and we shouldn't be allowed to vote again on Brexit or any related matter? Ridiculous.
It didn’t peak in 2016 at all. But there was a vote. The largest in British history. People voted to leave the European Union. We need to leave the European Union, it’s as simple as that. Think of the implications of reversing the result of that for millions of people. There would be civil disobedience and you are very very naive to think that the result would be any different in a second referendum. Since day one in the Brexit debate. There have been 2 wings that have been focused on entirely. The ultra remainers & ultra leavers. Both are as unreasonable, toxic and dishonest as eachother. It’s nothing other than tribalism. The reality is that in the majority. There are a lot of decent people stuck in the middle who voted both remain and leave. But could recognise fully the legitimacy of the other sides arguments. We now hear from the 2nd referendum campaigners about all those poor leave voters who were unsure and would now vote differently. We NEVER hear about the other side: remainers who could’ve easily voted leave in the first place and would vote differently in another referendum. I happen to be one of them. The job for any government now is to implement the result of the referendum whilst attempting to secure the best possible outcome for as close to 100% of people as possible. Trying to reverse Brexit before we’ve even left would be a cynical undermining of democracy. I literally cannot believe anyone would argue that it wouldn’t be just because it suits their side of the argument and what they personally think will be best. Principles *should* ALWAYS trump personal political positions. But I’m starting to see a side of the ultra wing of remainers I refer to, that would suggest they have none whatsoever.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Sep 18 4.16pm |
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Originally posted by pefwin
that was years ago when we were told £350mn a week for the NHS and all non English would leave. You have got to be kidding. As if Remain told the truth. How old are you?
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