Gender and sexuality
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 Stirlingsays  30 Mar 16 11.56pm |
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Originally posted by Stuk
They aren't. What you mean is Ronda Rousey for a very short period (a fight or two) got the most contracted pay, which makes up the smallest part of the overall pay. She is not even in the top 50 for highest earners from UFC. Well, that's because she hasn't had a lot of fights. I was referring to Rousey yes....I should have made that more clear. My point is that popularity decides pay in sport and not gender.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 31 Mar 16 12.07am |
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Originally posted by coulsdoneagle
I realise I'm a couple of pages late to the party, was reading a discussion about teaching kids in school between Jamie and Stuk I don't get why anyone would delay teaching kids about things like gender and sexuality. If they are learning that people have mummys and daddys they should be learning that some people have two mums or two dads etc. By waiting till secondary school or till they have learnt what they perceive as 'normal' you are then abnormalising something completely normal. They are learning that these things directly counter what they understand and have done from such a young age. Do I think kids should be forced to be educated in things like these to keep them as open minded as possible? Absolutely, I also think they should be forced to learn maths and English, am I forcing too much on kids stuk? By the way I'm not talking about having classes on what a Trans person is, I'm just talking about not making it anything but normal. If your headmaster is Gay then he should be free when telling kids anecdotes as teachers do, to mention his husband or whatever. If they have questions, then they should be answered. Mmmmm....I think your attitudes are exactly what I don't like. I believe that school should encourage independent thought. Outside of teaching a respect of the law, no bullying and that non-violence, understanding and debate are the tools for engagement with others I'm not comfortable with dictation on 'correct' ways they should think. Attitudes in sex education are not the same as teaching maths. Freedom of thought and non violent expression are extremely important principles.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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coulsdoneagle  London 31 Mar 16 2.03am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Mmmmm....I think your attitudes are exactly what I don't like. I believe that school should encourage independent thought. Outside of teaching a respect of the law, no bullying and that non-violence, understanding and debate are the tools for engagement with others I'm not comfortable with dictation on 'correct' ways they should think. Attitudes in sex education are not the same as teaching maths. Freedom of thought and non violent expression are extremely important principles.
My opinion is that independent thought is vitally important, but that can't be done without education. I agree with freedom of thought and expression but there are in my opinion fundamental absolutes that should be taught, such as freedom of expression and yeah I would comfortably argue that there are incorrect ways to think. Homophobia, transphobia, racism, sexism etc all in my opinion are wrong ways to think. I believe education is important and I believe freedom and independence in children to make their own mind about a great deal of things but I still believe in some moral absolutes.
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| matt_himself Matataland 31 Mar 16 3.23am |
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"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Stuk Top half 31 Mar 16 12.15pm |
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Originally posted by coulsdoneagle
Have to say I disagree with you about the role of parents as sole decision makers in educating kids on things like religion and sexuality. Bigot parents tend to breed bigot kids. I think that no matter what the age, if parents are saying gays are wrong and Muslims are bad there should be education in school that can counter that and inform people about religions and sexuality so the kids have more of a chance to grow with different opinions rather than having their views shaped by wrong views. I speak from experience having worked in schools about the fact that you can make a pretty good judgement about a kids parents just by how the kid talks about certain things. I have heard 6 year olds repeat casually racist and homophobic statements because of things heard at home. Sometimes it's as seemingly innocuous as calling a kid gay, other time it's worse referring to brown kids as bloody pa*is. I think there needs to be a way to mediate what they take in at that age. Where did I say the parents should be the sole decision makers? When they're older they can be taught whatever, and when they're even older they can make their own decisions. We are talking about it being forced on primary school age children here, without the consent of the parents. Not wanting your young kids to be taught about trans people instead of maths, spelling, sport etc. doesn't make the parents bigoted. I don't know why you're rambling about gays, religions and racism. This is about a head teacher arbitrarily deciding that the primary school kids need to be taught all about trans, when they don't.
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| Stuk Top half 31 Mar 16 12.22pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well, that's because she hasn't had a lot of fights. I was referring to Rousey yes....I should have made that more clear. My point is that popularity decides pay in sport and not gender. No, it's because she isn't the highest paid fighter. Either per fight or for her career. It's like someone at a bank saying they're the highest paid as they get the most salary, while forgetting that another x amount of people all earn far more when they get their bonus/shares etc. Yes, popularity should decide pay but in a lot of cases it doesn't as it's equalised. The real popularity reflection is in the sponsorship deals for many sports persons. As tennis has eluded to in it's recent headlines.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 31 Mar 16 2.21pm |
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Happy transgender visibility day.
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| Stirlingsays 31 Mar 16 5.00pm |
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Originally posted by coulsdoneagle
My opinion is that independent thought is vitally important, but that can't be done without education. I agree with freedom of thought and expression but there are in my opinion fundamental absolutes that should be taught, such as freedom of expression and yeah I would comfortably argue that there are incorrect ways to think. Homophobia, transphobia, racism, sexism etc all in my opinion are wrong ways to think. I believe education is important and I believe freedom and independence in children to make their own mind about a great deal of things but I still believe in some moral absolutes. There are two problems with your opinion here. Firstly who decides upon what constituents what these phobias and 'isms' are? Your judgement may differ from my judgement. Thought policing is problematical in whatever form it takes. Secondly, in my opinion, it isn't the place of educators to start presenting 'correct modes' of thought on race or sexuality outside of legal requirements. It really isn't: Schools should stick to teaching that it's wrong to bully or be violent to those different from you because they are different to you. This is rightly the law of the land and it's right to teach it. But not liking people or groups isn't a crime nor should it be. It may be unfortunate but if you don't hurt anyone it's your business, not the business of the state to 'correct' you. Debate is fine, exploring ideas is fine but outside of being strict upon bullying and violence the state should tread very carefully on sociological programming. I'm a believer in encouraging positive interaction between people not dictating what views they should have.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matt_himself Matataland 31 Mar 16 10.18pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Happy transgender visibility day. What does that mean Gusset to the 'average bloke in the street'? Please explain? We are all up for helping our own and oppressed minorities.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Apr 16 11.31am |
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Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles
I'm not a fan of the word 'normal' in the context of educating children about diversity. I haven't met a transgender person in my life. To say that experiencing feelings of being 'trapped' in a body of the wrong sex is not in my opinion 'normal'. I would say that it is a sign of being mentally dysfunctional. Science in this area has come a long way, its not really just considered a psychological phenomena, but more associated with intersex disorders and medical phenomena. Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles
Being gay is different. It is fundamentally about sexual attraction, a primal instinct that is shared by animals. Nor, according to studies is same-sex attraction confined to humans. Intersex and similar disorders do occur in nature, its just we don't typically see it often, because its not readily apparent and the capacity for realignment doesn't occur. Twin studies show a high basis for a genetic factors. Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles
Transgenderism isn't in my view normal. As we are told every day by the experts and liberal proselytes, gender is a human construct. Well yes, and no. Sexuality and gender are human constructs based around perceived norms, which are artificial constructs reflecting society - Where in heterosexuality is determined as a norm, in contradiction to the evidence (Hetrosexuality is more of a preference, given the level of flexibility based on social availability of partners, experimentation and 'play'). We define heterosexuality by much more flexible criteria than we do diversity). Strictly speaking humans are sexual, and preferential towards certain forms of sexual experience, rather than hetro and quite possibly bisexuality is more the norm than we'd believe). Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles
What must be taught is a fundamental respect for the diversity in experiences and feelings that others have and that others must be treated with dignity and respect. I think that should be seen as the ideal norm, the idea that we treat all people with dignity and as much respect as we can muster. Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles
I personally think trans people need love and compassion. That can take many, many forms I'm not suggesting a particular one. But honestly, if you found out a girl/guy you thought looked alright was in fact trans would you still be interested. I think from about 95% of straight people, the honest answer/thought would be 'no'. Given the number of intersex occurances in which a resolution is applied at birth to determine gender, by the parents and physician, there is a very good chance that some of us have had sex or are even relationships with transgendered people, without knowing it (or them knowing it). The estimate of 0.3% occurrence doesn't include those who were 'assigned' a gender at birth. Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles
This last point is perhaps redundant, but would those people be transphobic because of their feeling? Surely not, because a person's biological sex has nothing to do with 'gender' (so we're told) so for example a transgender woman who is attracted to men is still technically homosexual. Well yes and know, I would say being transgender is different from being male or female, as the experience has experiential difference from either grouping, as well as biological and hormonal differences. Sexuality and gender are not the same, only related. Sexuality is very complex. Edited by jamiemartin721 (01 Apr 2016 11.40am)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Apr 16 11.39am |
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Originally posted by coulsdoneagle
My opinion is that independent thought is vitally important, but that can't be done without education. I agree with freedom of thought and expression but there are in my opinion fundamental absolutes that should be taught, such as freedom of expression and yeah I would comfortably argue that there are incorrect ways to think. Homophobia, transphobia, racism, sexism etc all in my opinion are wrong ways to think. I believe education is important and I believe freedom and independence in children to make their own mind about a great deal of things but I still believe in some moral absolutes. I think what is more important is why people are homophobic, transphobic, racist and sexist, rather than it being 'wrong thinking', and that rather than address the issues behind people's thinking through debate, we often rush to judgement. Someone who for example has suffered sexual abuse has a very different basis for their prejudice. I think concepts of irrational hate stem from deep routed phenomena and experiences, often in childhood, that aren't always as simple as people 'not liking gays because their christian'. Hatred, proper hate, comes from a very personal place, and it may well be 'based in real experience' or a transference of hate from elsewhere. I tend to see strong prejudice as a symptom of a deeper issue in the person, not as just wrong thinking. Maintaining hatred is a major effort, with a lot of undertaking and personal risk (psychologically and socially) to maintain - Something most of us can only achieve in relation to specific transgressions. To maintain blanket hate, requires something very powerful within the hater.
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| Stuk Top half 01 Apr 16 12.18pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well, that's because she hasn't had a lot of fights. I was referring to Rousey yes....I should have made that more clear. My point is that popularity decides pay in sport and not gender. USA women's team allege wage discrimination as they're not paid the same as the men are. Popularity should decide pay, but nowadays they just want parity regardless.
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