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April 27 2024 2.32pm

having your cake and eating it

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 27 Oct 16 2.08pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Well the first would be illegal, as its directly anti-semetic and racist. The second could be refused on the basis that its promotion of a criminal act, but the third maybe - but hypothetically yes, provided they're a bakery, rather than a say a Jewish Bakery.

A Jewish Bakery is different, in law, than a bakery that is owned by, or employs some, people who are Jewish - If you had a specific religious business - that clearly identified itself as such, then you might have a case.

Even if they were a Christian Bakery, it would be problematic, possibly, as marriage is NOT a state of Christianity, but a state of in law, that can also have a Christian ceremony - Marriage is defined by law not religious views upon marriage - and as such is secular.

which was exactly the case here. The cake in question was supporting gay marriage which is still illegal over there, so advocating a change in the law to make something legal, just as the example above is.

Whether it should be illegal is clearly a totally different debate - the fact is that it currently is

 

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 27 Oct 16 2.11pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

It depends on whether it was because they were gay. But the same law applies.

But this cake was not refused because the customer was gay - if I remember the case correctly, the order was taken by a junior member of staff, and it was only later, when the owners got it, that they said no. They never actually met the client until it all blew up (again, if my memory is right) which is why I say they would have rejected the order if the client had been straight or gay, as it was the message they objected to, not necessarily the person requesting it.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 27 Oct 16 2.11pm

Originally posted by npn

I guess the obvious example would be to go into a gay bakery in England and request a cake with "make gay marriage illegal". They both request a change to existing laws in their respective countries, and both would be unpalatable to the proprietors regardless of the sexuality of the person making the order.

My point has always been that the sexuality of the people requesting the cake was completely irrelevant - if I'd asked for the same cake (as a straight bloke) they wouldn't have liked it either, so nobody was discriminated against.

Jamie's point on contract law may have had some bearing, if the bakery was sued for breach of contract, but they weren't. They were done under discrimination legislation, which just seems plain wrong.

Incidentally, I have no problem with gay marriage - you could marry a horse for all the difference it makes to me!

Its important, because it establishes that there were no such clear policies or statements in effect. It establishes, that the owner, who took payment for the order, clearly was only later troubled by the idea. Had a policy existed and been in place for the business, they would clearly have not taken such an order.

Its important because it shows discrimination, rather than refusal to accept business (You don't have to trade with people as a business).

Basically, its a silly case, in which some uptight homophobes tried to use religious expression as a defence for being homophobes, and lost, and its being re-structured as a 'Human Rights issue' in an area where human rights legislation is not applicable.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 27 Oct 16 2.16pm

Originally posted by npn

But this cake was not refused because the customer was gay - if I remember the case correctly, the order was taken by a junior member of staff, and it was only later, when the owners got it, that they said no. They never actually met the client until it all blew up (again, if my memory is right) which is why I say they would have rejected the order if the client had been straight or gay, as it was the message they objected to, not necessarily the person requesting it.

That was their defence, however gay and gay issues are interchangeable in law. Their staff clearly had never been told of their business policy - neither was this clearly displayed or reasonable to deduce from the premesis.

And I'm pretty sure the order was taken by one of the owners.

As such, it was discrimination on the basis of sexuality (it doesn't have to be the individuals sexuality - it would be just the same if the individual was straight).

 


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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 27 Oct 16 2.17pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its important, because it establishes that there were no such clear policies or statements in effect. It establishes, that the owner, who took payment for the order, clearly was only later troubled by the idea. Had a policy existed and been in place for the business, they would clearly have not taken such an order.

Its important because it shows discrimination, rather than refusal to accept business (You don't have to trade with people as a business).

Basically, its a silly case, in which some uptight homophobes tried to use religious expression as a defence for being homophobes, and lost, and its being re-structured as a 'Human Rights issue' in an area where human rights legislation is not applicable.

IIRC the order was taken by a junior, not the owners, and they rejected it when they saw the message.

I doubt there was a policy in place, but if there was, it was probably a vague one along the lines of "distasteful or offensive messages" - of course, what that constitutes differs from person to person (hence the junior staff member not deeming it a dodgy order, but the owners overruling).

Unless you list the things you won't do, you're wide open in that case, and you can't list what you won't do because you'll never second guess all the crazies and people with warped senses of humour there may be. All you could do is say "we reserve the right to refuse orders" and, as you said earlier, because this happened some time later, it's quite right and proper that the client may have recourse through contract law to claim back any losses or inconvenience which may have been caused by having to get the cake made elsewhere, after thinking the order was done

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 27 Oct 16 2.19pm

Originally posted by npn

which was exactly the case here. The cake in question was supporting gay marriage which is still illegal over there, so advocating a change in the law to make something legal, just as the example above is.

Whether it should be illegal is clearly a totally different debate - the fact is that it currently is

Gay marriage wasn't /isn't illegal over there. Its not on the statue of laws, but its not a crime either - its recognised as a lawful state of marriage. Whilst you can't get married as a same sex couple in Northern Ireland - people who are married elsewhere still have legal status - and have not committed a crime by being married.

Also I believe civil partnerships were legal.

As such, its in support of a lawful petition for change, not a crime under UK law.

 


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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 27 Oct 16 2.27pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Gay marriage wasn't /isn't illegal over there. Its not on the statue of laws, but its not a crime either - its recognised as a lawful state of marriage. Whilst you can't get married as a same sex couple in Northern Ireland - people who are married elsewhere still have legal status - and have not committed a crime by being married.

Also I believe civil partnerships were legal.

As such, its in support of a lawful petition for change, not a crime under UK law.

That's a fairly hazy distinction in semantics, but I don't want to get caught up in it. The fact that the law does not allow you to marry over there, by this argument, makes the law itself at odds with this very same legislation, surely? Why are there not mass lawsuits against the government for discrimination?

I've just had a very quick look back at the original case, BTW, and it doesn't say who took the order, only that it was declined 48 hours later. I can't assert either way, but it also says they employ 80 people, so that may make it less likely that the order was taken by an owner (or not)

 

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View becky's Profile becky Flag over the moon 27 Oct 16 2.57pm Send a Private Message to becky Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add becky as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Well the first would be illegal, as its directly anti-semetic and racist. The second could be refused on the basis that its promotion of a criminal act, but the third maybe - but hypothetically yes, provided they're a bakery, rather than a say a Jewish Bakery.

A Jewish Bakery is different, in law, than a bakery that is owned by, or employs some, people who are Jewish - If you had a specific religious business - that clearly identified itself as such, then you might have a case.

Even if they were a Christian Bakery, it would be problematic, possibly, as marriage is NOT a state of Christianity, but a state of in law, that can also have a Christian ceremony - Marriage is defined by law not religious views upon marriage - and as such is secular.

Which is quite ironic, given that up until the 1850's you could ONLY get married in a church - there was no 'civil' mechanism for marriage. So in fact, marriage is much more of the 'church' than of the 'law'.

 


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View dannyh's Profile dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 27 Oct 16 2.59pm Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

Why are gayers so f**king touchy about literally everything.

You like dick we get it. now shut up and if you don't want to be treated differently, come and join the rest of the down trowden and stop being so fcking precious about everything.

 


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carlonoil Flag Naples 27 Oct 16 3.02pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Gay marriage wasn't /isn't illegal over there. Its not on the statue of laws, but its not a crime either - its recognised as a lawful state of marriage. Whilst you can't get married as a same sex couple in Northern Ireland - people who are married elsewhere still have legal status - and have not committed a crime by being married.

Also I believe civil partnerships were legal.

As such, its in support of a lawful petition for change, not a crime under UK law.

So why did you say that my hypothetical slogan of "support lowering the age of consent to 10" could be refused on the basis that it's promotion of a criminal act.

 

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bubble wrap Flag Carparks in South East London 27 Oct 16 3.16pm

Gay cakes?
Fairy Cakes.
Hairy chocolate Donut cakes.
Poof pastries.
Iced Bums.
Choclolate fingers.
Brownie
Plum Cake
Bum Baba


 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 27 Oct 16 4.07pm

Originally posted by becky

Which is quite ironic, given that up until the 1850's you could ONLY get married in a church - there was no 'civil' mechanism for marriage. So in fact, marriage is much more of the 'church' than of the 'law'.

Yeah but that's 160 odd years ago... Interestingly there is no explicit law other than precedent that prohibited gay marriage until I think the 1960s...

 


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