General Election 2017

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Stirlingsays 19 May 17 9.33am
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Of course the state should provide essential services, education, welfare, and defence and law and order. But it should keep well away from everything else. There is the myth that a government knows best, that a nation cannot flourish and prosper unless people conduct their lives in a manner laid down by the higher wisdom of a little group of people somewhere in the centre - the people can be trusted to decide nothing unless the government supplies the answer. Anyone else's decision or management, any other system but that of state control, is contemptuously dismissed as 'chaos'. The collective wisdom and the collective will of the country resides not in any little Whitehall clique, but in the whole mass of the people - in the producers, listening to their customers; in the savers and investors looking for the best opportunities; in consumers expressing their needs and choices in the market place. They drive and shape the economy, far more so than the hapless state 'planners'. I kind of agree. I suppose I want to better the state...I recognise that for all its faults it is incredibly important....The problem is that there are a lot of good people like yourself who throw their hands up in the air over a lot of the controversial stuff and give up on it. A lot of talented people opt out....they play the elitist game.....private schools, private healthcare, looking to pay as low a tax as possible and so on....I'm generalising of course. But they lower the standard by removing themselves. Ultimately they add to the problems of what they complain about and then implicitly say, 'nothing to do with me, it's that lot'. Yet when they need the state they take it....which as tax payers they are entitled to. I probably agree with you on most of what you don't like about the state. I just think we all need to pull together on essentially the only show in town. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 May 2017 9.33am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

19 May 17 9.33am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Of course the state should provide essential services, education, welfare, and defence and law and order. But it should keep well away from everything else.
There is the myth that a government knows best, that a nation cannot flourish and prosper unless people conduct their lives in a manner laid down by the higher wisdom of a little group of people somewhere in the centre - the people can be trusted to decide nothing unless the government supplies the answer. Anyone else's decision or management, any other system but that of state control, is contemptuously dismissed as 'chaos'. The collective wisdom and the collective will of the country resides not in any little Whitehall clique, but in the whole mass of the people - in the producers, listening to their customers; in the savers and investors looking for the best opportunities; in consumers expressing their needs and choices in the market place. They drive and shape the economy, far more so than the hapless state 'planners'.

I kind of agree.

I suppose I want to better the state...I recognise that for all its faults it is incredibly important....The problem is that there are a lot of good people like yourself who throw their hands up in the air over a lot of the controversial stuff and give up on it.

A lot of talented people opt out....they play the elitist game.....private schools, private healthcare, looking to pay as low a tax as possible and so on....I'm generalising of course. But they lower the standard by removing themselves.

Ultimately they add to the problems of what they complain about and then implicitly say, 'nothing to do with me, it's that lot'. Yet when they need the state they take it....which as tax payers they are entitled to.

I probably agree with you on most of what you don't like about the state.

I just think we all need to pull together on essentially the only show in town.

Edited by Stirlingsays (19 May 2017 9.33am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 May 17 9.40am
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch You buy your house out of your income after it has been taxed plus pay stamp duty. To say the state should take a persons estate when they die is ridiculous not least because people will make sure that they get rid of everything anyway. Is this similar to what was in the Tory manifesto yesterday RE elderly care? Changing the basis of inheritance tax has not actually been proposed by any of the parties. We're getting into the realms of what we believe is fair, which is interesting and worth discussing. My argument is that I don't think the current basis is fair for reasons previously outlined. Tax on taxed income is a thing. Companies pay corporation tax on profits which are generated from income earned from consumers who've already paid income tax on that income etc etc. The real question is what is fairest and most effective. In terms of what is on offer on IHT in this election the Tories will carry on with plans to exempt property up to £1m and Labour are likely to reverse that and bring property back into the main nil rate pool (up to £650k). £650k is still a lot of money to receive tax free having not worked for it. The Tory policy takes money out of public services and puts it into the pockets of people with more than £1m in assets, assets they haven't earned themselves, but been given by relatives.
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 May 17 9.40am

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Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

You buy your house out of your income after it has been taxed plus pay stamp duty.

To say the state should take a persons estate when they die is ridiculous not least because people will make sure that they get rid of everything anyway.

Is this similar to what was in the Tory manifesto yesterday RE elderly care?

Changing the basis of inheritance tax has not actually been proposed by any of the parties. We're getting into the realms of what we believe is fair, which is interesting and worth discussing. My argument is that I don't think the current basis is fair for reasons previously outlined. Tax on taxed income is a thing. Companies pay corporation tax on profits which are generated from income earned from consumers who've already paid income tax on that income etc etc. The real question is what is fairest and most effective.

In terms of what is on offer on IHT in this election the Tories will carry on with plans to exempt property up to £1m and Labour are likely to reverse that and bring property back into the main nil rate pool (up to £650k). £650k is still a lot of money to receive tax free having not worked for it. The Tory policy takes money out of public services and puts it into the pockets of people with more than £1m in assets, assets they haven't earned themselves, but been given by relatives.

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 19 May 17 9.43am
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Lifetime gifts are already included within the scope of inheritance tax. If you had actually read what I'd written you'd see that I had suggested a de minimis tax free amount for EACH recipient. I would suggest that lifetime gifts could easily be brought within the scope of what I have suggested in a similar way to the current application. (I believe it's a current de minimis of £3k per year per recipient). So if you give someone a "birthday present" of £5k now and die tomorrow that present would be included in the value of your estate and be within the scope of IHT. So you're point is facile as your example is already within the scope. I wasn't talking in terms of IHT, I was talking about your comment regarding (earned?)income. I have no issue with IHT but 40% over the threshold is punitive, particularly when you live in London / South East. the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 19 May 17 9.43am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Lifetime gifts are already included within the scope of inheritance tax.

If you had actually read what I'd written you'd see that I had suggested a de minimis tax free amount for EACH recipient. I would suggest that lifetime gifts could easily be brought within the scope of what I have suggested in a similar way to the current application. (I believe it's a current de minimis of £3k per year per recipient).

So if you give someone a "birthday present" of £5k now and die tomorrow that present would be included in the value of your estate and be within the scope of IHT. So you're point is facile as your example is already within the scope.

I wasn't talking in terms of IHT, I was talking about your comment regarding (earned?)income.

I have no issue with IHT but 40% over the threshold is punitive, particularly when you live in London / South East.

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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Stirlingsays 19 May 17 9.43am
As an aside, imagine what it was like for me being a secondary school teacher who voted Ukip and leave. On the Brexit vote, in my school 28 percent of the staff voted leave....and I regarded that as an unusually high percentage...If you are on the right or even in the centre you tend to find it helps to keep your mouth shut in the staffroom. The school system...like most parts of the state is dominated by the left....Unfortunately the politics of it does affect it. On the day of the vote very few vocal teachers imagined that leave would win. I knew one of them who didn't even vote he was so sure. I came from a very different place to most of them and I knew in my gut that it was on a knife's edge. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 May 2017 9.46am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

19 May 17 9.43am

As an aside, imagine what it was like for me being a secondary school teacher who voted Ukip and leave.

On the Brexit vote, in my school 28 percent of the staff voted leave....and I regarded that as an unusually high percentage...If you are on the right or even in the centre you tend to find it helps to keep your mouth shut in the staffroom.

The school system...like most parts of the state is dominated by the left....Unfortunately the politics of it does affect it.

On the day of the vote very few vocal teachers imagined that leave would win. I knew one of them who didn't even vote he was so sure.

I came from a very different place to most of them and I knew in my gut that it was on a knife's edge.

Edited by Stirlingsays (19 May 2017 9.46am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 May 17 9.46am
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Most of you on here just want more and more tax to be collected and more and more state involvement in more and more aspects of our lives. This is despite the long history of waste, inefficiency, failed schemes and general failure of most state endeavours. What we need is less and less taxation and less and less state involvement. Sounds like you should go and live "off-grid". I understand there are a few places in the US that would offer such a lifestyle.
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 May 17 9.46am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Most of you on here just want more and more tax to be collected and more and more state involvement in more and more aspects of our lives. This is despite the long history of waste, inefficiency, failed schemes and general failure of most state endeavours. What we need is less and less taxation and less and less state involvement.

Sounds like you should go and live "off-grid". I understand there are a few places in the US that would offer such a lifestyle.

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 19 May 17 9.47am
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Is this similar to what was in the Tory manifesto yesterday RE elderly care? Changing the basis of inheritance tax has not actually been proposed by any of the parties. We're getting into the realms of what we believe is fair, which is interesting and worth discussing. My argument is that I don't think the current basis is fair for reasons previously outlined. Tax on taxed income is a thing. Companies pay corporation tax on profits which are generated from income earned from consumers who've already paid income tax on that income etc etc. The real question is what is fairest and most effective. In terms of what is on offer on IHT in this election the Tories will carry on with plans to exempt property up to £1m and Labour are likely to reverse that and bring property back into the main nil rate pool (up to £650k). £650k is still a lot of money to receive tax free having not worked for it. The Tory policy takes money out of public services and puts it into the pockets of people with more than £1m in assets, assets they haven't earned themselves, but been given by relatives. It is quite a lot but depending on where you live, it ranges from being able to own a large house and land to a 3 bedroom semi in S Croydon! I am not sure regionalising it would or could work, the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 19 May 17 9.47am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Is this similar to what was in the Tory manifesto yesterday RE elderly care?

In terms of what is on offer on IHT in this election the Tories will carry on with plans to exempt property up to £1m and Labour are likely to reverse that and bring property back into the main nil rate pool (up to £650k). £650k is still a lot of money to receive tax free having not worked for it. The Tory policy takes money out of public services and puts it into the pockets of people with more than £1m in assets, assets they haven't earned themselves, but been given by relatives.

It is quite a lot but depending on where you live, it ranges from being able to own a large house and land to a 3 bedroom semi in S Croydon! I am not sure regionalising it would or could work,

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 May 17 9.56am
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch I wasn't talking in terms of IHT, I was talking about your comment regarding (earned?)income. I have no issue with IHT but 40% over the threshold is punitive, particularly when you live in London / South East. Sorry, should clarify. My points have only been in relation to inheritance when discussing earning vs unearned income. But gifts are already included.
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 May 17 9.56am

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

I wasn't talking in terms of IHT, I was talking about your comment regarding (earned?)income.

I have no issue with IHT but 40% over the threshold is punitive, particularly when you live in London / South East.

Sorry, should clarify. My points have only been in relation to inheritance when discussing earning vs unearned income. But gifts are already included.

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 May 17 9.58am
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch I wasn't talking in terms of IHT, I was talking about your comment regarding (earned?)income. I have no issue with IHT but 40% over the threshold is punitive, particularly when you live in London / South East. Currently, if a married couple dies and leaves their child their estate worth £1m the child would receive £860k so tax at an effective rate of 14%. hardly punitive.
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 May 17 9.58am

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

I wasn't talking in terms of IHT, I was talking about your comment regarding (earned?)income.

I have no issue with IHT but 40% over the threshold is punitive, particularly when you live in London / South East.

Currently, if a married couple dies and leaves their child their estate worth £1m the child would receive £860k so tax at an effective rate of 14%. hardly punitive.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 May 17 11.31am
[Link] Tories banning sky news reporters?.!
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 19 May 17 11.31am

[Link]

Tories banning sky news reporters?.!

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MalcomsFedora Brockley 19 May 17 11.58am
Voting labour but only because it's against my interest to vote tory. I don't think labour can deliver on a lot if what they are saying I obviously hope they can.
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MalcomsFedora

Brockley 19 May 17 11.58am

Voting labour but only because it's against my interest to vote tory. I don't think labour can deliver on a lot if what they are saying I obviously hope they can.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 19 May 17 12.09pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Sounds like you should go and live "off-grid". I understand there are a few places in the US that would offer such a lifestyle. Similarly, you could go off and live in Cuba. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 19 May 17 12.09pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Sounds like you should go and live "off-grid". I understand there are a few places in the US that would offer such a lifestyle.

Similarly, you could go off and live in Cuba.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 19 May 17 12.18pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I kind of agree. I suppose I want to better the state...I recognise that for all its faults it is incredibly important....The problem is that there are a lot of good people like yourself who throw their hands up in the air over a lot of the controversial stuff and give up on it. A lot of talented people opt out....they play the elitist game.....private schools, private healthcare, looking to pay as low a tax as possible and so on....I'm generalising of course. But they lower the standard by removing themselves. Ultimately they add to the problems of what they complain about and then implicitly say, 'nothing to do with me, it's that lot'. Yet when they need the state they take it....which as tax payers they are entitled to. I probably agree with you on most of what you don't like about the state. I just think we all need to pull together on essentially the only show in town. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 May 2017 9.33am) I think we mostly agree really, but I think any additional state intervention should be scrutinised very closely as it often does more harm than good. Also, all price caps, wage caps, interest rate fixing etc is all nonsense that distorts the market place - the very mechanism by which true rates would be arrived at. Edited by hedgehog50 (19 May 2017 12.40pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 19 May 17 12.18pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I kind of agree.

I probably agree with you on most of what you don't like about the state.

I just think we all need to pull together on essentially the only show in town.

Edited by Stirlingsays (19 May 2017 9.33am)

I think we mostly agree really, but I think any additional state intervention should be scrutinised very closely as it often does more harm than good. Also, all price caps, wage caps, interest rate fixing etc is all nonsense that distorts the market place - the very mechanism by which true rates would be arrived at.

Edited by hedgehog50 (19 May 2017 12.40pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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