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December 12 2018 2.43am

Is this anti-semitic ?

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View johnmcormick8's Profile johnmcormick8 Flag Brundish 23 Nov 18 8.25pm Send a Private Message to johnmcormick8 Add johnmcormick8 as a friend

Yes blaming the weather changes on the jewish ppl is anti semetic.
also the jews have a right to some of the land in the middle east, they have a history going back to pre-history. During the rise of Islam and the empire from year 1000 the jewish nation to be forced from the land enthically clenesed if you will.

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 23 Nov 18 9.06pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

This is complete red herring. As far as I'm aware, all US presidents have supported Israel. In 1995 with Bill Clinton as president, Congress overwhelmingly passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act, which declared that "Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel".

The US and also the UK see Israel as friends and a key ally in the region as the only democracy. Smearing the 'Christian Right' as this nasty, powerful group with a lack of intelligence is prejudiced. Did you know that Christians and Jews believe in different things? To imply that the Jews "swing things" puts you in dicey territory...

No it isn't. Under the very president you mention, israeli soldiers were clearing settlers out of the occupied territories. Do I really need to say what has happenedvunder trump.

Through gritted teeth Israel behaves better under democrats but when republicans are in situ all he'll breaks loose.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View pefwin's Profile pefwin Flag Fighting the politics of envy 23 Nov 18 10.45pm Send a Private Message to pefwin Add pefwin as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


On an ethical basis Israel has no right to exist on the land it occupies.....but ethics are for individuals, the state of nations are the results of far larger forces.

Carving out a new country based upon a religious book, guilt over the attempted geocide and where your ancient descendants partly came from is no defence for it.....I've always agreed with Einstein's views at the time over it.

That said, who do I prefer?......the Israelis or the Palestinians (Hamas). I prefer the Israelis because they are pro western, partly European and rational....but I recognise that it has nothing to do with fairness.

Israel exists....it's not going away. There's too much generational hatred for them to ever be accepted in the region. So they have to remove their enemies or be removed themselves.....might is right, whether we like it or not.

Whatever happens it's horrible. As a young man I used to believe in the peace process....but that was naive...like a lot of things I used to believe in...more hope than realism.

I certainly don't believe that Israel deserves the support of America to the extent that it gets it. The power of the Jewish lobbies over there in all levels of politics and business creates a disfigurement.

I also certainly don't agree with this idea that you can't criticise Israel because it's somehow anti semitic.....Sure some people are anti semitic but most aren't, and the levels of censor over criticising another country's government is wholly ridiculous and inappropriate.


Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Nov 2018 3.14am)

lovely but did not answer a rather simple question.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 23 Nov 18 11.49pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

No it isn't. Under the very president you mention, israeli soldiers were clearing settlers out of the occupied territories. Do I really need to say what has happenedvunder trump.

Through gritted teeth Israel behaves better under democrats but when republicans are in situ all he'll breaks loose.

All hell breaks loose? That's been happening under every POTUS.

Two years ago, when the US let an anti-settlement resolution pass at UN Security Council, US Ambassador Samantha Power said it was: "fully in line with the bipartisan history" of how US presidents have approached the issue for decades. Essentially they've all backed Israel as a state but have generally been critical of its new settlements.

You claimed "all Republican governments are so pro-Israel".

Truman (Democrat) helped create Israel.

Eisenhower (Republican) threatened to withhold more than 100 million dollars in annual US aid if they didn't withdraw from the Sinai Peninsula.

Kennedy (Democrat) was the first POTUS to describe the US Israeli alliance as a 'special relationship' and also set up military ties.

Johnson (Democrat) increased the US military spend to Israel, sold offensive arms for the first time. He didn't tell Israel to return land it acquired after the Six Day War.

Carter (Democrat) Was a supporter of Israel while in office, though he back-tracked afterwards.

Reagan (Republican) told the Israelis get out of Lebanon.

H W Bush (Republican) was strongly opposed to Israel’s settlement building in the West Bank and Gaza but did admit to co-towing to the Jewish lobby.

Clinton (Democrat) as I said above, passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act recognising Israel's capital. His administration was the first to refuse to condemn the construction of illegal Israeli settlements in Arab East Jerusalem.

Bush (Republican) failed to move the US embassy to Jerusalem. He also demanded Israel end occupation of Arab lands.

Obama (Democrat) also recognised Jerusalem as the capital and signed a multi-billion dollar aid programme.

US Jews contribute half of all donations to the Democrats, while it's just 25% to the Republicans. Over 70% of US Jews vote Democrat too.

Edited by Penge Eagle (24 Nov 2018 12.52am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 24 Nov 18 2.30am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by pefwin

lovely but did not answer a rather simple question.


Well I think I did answer it., these aren't simple answers.

Essentially If you fight and win land then you own it. The ethics of it are neither here nor there...arguing the toss doesn't even win you breakfast.....But I agree....the ethics still exist.

However, If we purely look at the ethics of situations we can make all sorts of points......Why is it ok for there to be a Mosque sitting atop of Solomon's temple?....the Al-Aqsa Mosque. If I were a religious Jew I would consider that almost intolerable...I don't like it even as atheist/agnostic brought up in the Christain tradition....The Jews were there first.

If we talk about the 'right' to a land....then Jerusalem was originally Jewish long before these other religions turned up. (even though the Jews themselves originally took the land from others long before they were expelled by Rome)

But no....I don't agree what happened in 47 was a good idea or ethical.

However, we have to deal with the situation now.....what should happen?. Essentially I believe the idea of a two state solution would be foolish for the Jews to pursue. It leads to a constant enemy right on their border, a proxy entry point for its enemies that it's already surrounded by....Plus an easy way for demographics to ultimately wipe them out.

If I were Jewish and wanted to ensure that Israel...a state run by Jews for Jews, was still around in 100 years I would be ensuring that the population of Jews never dropped below 85 percent.

The Jewish aren't stupid.

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Nov 2018 4.05am)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View pefwin's Profile pefwin Flag Fighting the politics of envy 24 Nov 18 8.30pm Send a Private Message to pefwin Add pefwin as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


Well I think I did answer it., these aren't simple answers.


Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Nov 2018 4.05am)

Of course I asked the question answered yours but I can't say that you have not answered mine. How progressive.


You stance on the UK and Isreal's right to land are currently very "popular" in the extremme right, but illogical for a reasoning point of view.

BTW, no race is stupid.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 25 Nov 18 12.49am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by pefwin

Of course I asked the question answered yours but I can't say that you have not answered mine. How progressive.


You stance on the UK and Isreal's right to land are currently very "popular" in the extremme right, but illogical for a reasoning point of view.

BTW, no race is stupid.

What do you think would happen if Israel stopped expanding and stopped any military aggression?

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 25 Nov 18 4.39am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by pefwin

Of course I asked the question answered yours but I can't say that you have not answered mine. How progressive.


You stance on the UK and Isreal's right to land are currently very "popular" in the extremme right, but illogical for a reasoning point of view.

BTW, no race is stupid.

The Jews aren't a race....nothing you can convert to is a race. The people who push the 'jews are a race' do so mostly on ideological grounds so they can partake in grievance and identity politics. Having said that there is a small subset of Jews who have a similar genetic grouping..if we only referred to them and no one else as Jewish then there would be some accuracy.....but that's not what we mean when we say Jews....when we refer to the Jewish people we include within them a massive group which contains a large variance in genetics......Mostly a mixture of European and middle eastern genes which includes small African and Asian subsections.

To answer your point about races and IQ. Some group's IQ averages are higher than others....that's a scientific fact. The relevant success of different groups also correlates to group IQ.....It's another scientific fact that IQ is the largest single contributor to an individual's success....not the only one for sure, but the single largest factor.

What's more accurate to say is that no one individual's intelligence is defined by their genetic group. Averages over populations are just that.

Also I'd say that I don't regard an individual's intelligence as the most important aspect about them. While it's a very important aspect to a nation's economic success (and IQ scores should be apart of non EU immigration entry into the country).....when it comes down to it....the character of an individual is more important.

When you are in the trenches and that whistle is blown, differences in IQ matter far less than the knowledge that you can rely on the guy next to you when the chips are down. That cohesion is very important for any society....without it you have internal balkanization....which is what has happened and what will continue to deepen.

Taking it back to Israel......what's your view then? What should Israel do? Do you seriously think them pursuing a two state solution makes long term sense? Look at how the Jews are treated in the middle east.....if they make nice it won't make any difference, they will never be accepted.

As for extreme right....well I may be to you....but I think that's because you don't really know the views of the extreme right.

That's a problem with many on the progressive side, they quickly run out of words for their ideological opponents because the find it difficult to correctly identify the differences between them.

In other words they all look the same to you.


Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2018 8.45am)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View pefwin's Profile pefwin Flag Fighting the politics of envy 26 Nov 18 11.35am Send a Private Message to pefwin Add pefwin as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The Jews aren't a race....nothing you can convert to is a race. The people who push the 'jews are a race' do so mostly on ideological grounds so they can partake in grievance and identity politics. Having said that there is a small subset of Jews who have a similar genetic grouping..if we only referred to them and no one else as Jewish then there would be some accuracy.....but that's not what we mean when we say Jews....when we refer to the Jewish people we include within them a massive group which contains a large variance in genetics......Mostly a mixture of European and middle eastern genes which includes small African and Asian subsections.

To answer your point about races and IQ. Some group's IQ averages are higher than others....that's a scientific fact. The relevant success of different groups also correlates to group IQ.....It's another scientific fact that IQ is the largest single contributor to an individual's success....not the only one for sure, but the single largest factor.

What's more accurate to say is that no one individual's intelligence is defined by their genetic group. Averages over populations are just that.

Also I'd say that I don't regard an individual's intelligence as the most important aspect about them. While it's a very important aspect to a nation's economic success (and IQ scores should be apart of non EU immigration entry into the country).....when it comes down to it....the character of an individual is more important.

When you are in the trenches and that whistle is blown, differences in IQ matter far less than the knowledge that you can rely on the guy next to you when the chips are down. That cohesion is very important for any society....without it you have internal balkanization....which is what has happened and what will continue to deepen.

Taking it back to Israel......what's your view then? What should Israel do? Do you seriously think them pursuing a two state solution makes long term sense? Look at how the Jews are treated in the middle east.....if they make nice it won't make any difference, they will never be accepted.

As for extreme right....well I may be to you....but I think that's because you don't really know the views of the extreme right.

That's a problem with many on the progressive side, they quickly run out of words for their ideological opponents because the find it difficult to correctly identify the differences between them.

In other words they all look the same to you.


Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2018 8.45am)

Still have not answered a simple question.

I don't think I will bother pointing out the inconsistencies in your "thoughts".

However I very much doubt you ever been near a trench unless you were planting peas.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 26 Nov 18 11.52am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by pefwin

Still have not answered a simple question.


I thought I'd made it plain.

Might is right.....all land was won in blood....fairness is for the soft minded subjectively self deluded. There is a winner and there is a loser....that's the real reality.

The Arabs fought Israel several times to regain the land.....They lost.

But ethically the creation of Israel disinherited a people from their land. I don't support that....but it isn't my fight.....and being a European and western I have cause to favour Israel.

So I have mixed feelings.....why is this difficult for you to understand?

Originally posted by pefwin

I don't think I will bother pointing out the inconsistencies in your "thoughts".

Lazy....or you just can't.

Originally posted by pefwin

However I very much doubt you ever been near a trench unless you were planting peas.

I wouldn't be so sure...metaphorically at least. It's unlikely that I'll have to fight but it's quite likely that my children will or theirs....that or flee.

The future for certain groups is less bright than it is for others.


Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Nov 2018 12.21pm)

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 02 Dec 18 1.15pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

I always look at food that I buy, particularly fruit and veg, if from Israel I boycott it. According to some of the crap on this thread that makes me an anti-semite.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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