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esox lucius Deal 20 Oct 18 9.54pm
I believe this programme is going to be shown by the BBC in November, not sure which day but I would guess it would be around armistice day.
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esox lucius

Deal 20 Oct 18 9.54pm

I believe this programme is going to be shown by the BBC in November, not sure which day but I would guess it would be around armistice day.

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chateauferret 20 Oct 18 10.09pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays It's a good point to make that we actually had our own monster.....one that happily shook hands after the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. The differences between Hitler and Stalin are purely cosmetic.......as meaningless as Trump saying that using chemical weapons to murder people is unacceptable which implies that dying via barrel bombs are ok....as if there is a level of dying horribly that just tips a level of acceptability....When we know that the real reasons for the chemical weapons objection is national self interest. Churchill's plan to attack the Soviets directly after WW2 made sense....but war exhaustion made it a non starter. Churchill also had more sense than to try and fight a war at a distance along an extended front of largely unknown territory and in conditions he wasn't used to, which is more than can be said for Hitler. ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

20 Oct 18 10.09pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

It's a good point to make that we actually had our own monster.....one that happily shook hands after the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

The differences between Hitler and Stalin are purely cosmetic.......as meaningless as Trump saying that using chemical weapons to murder people is unacceptable which implies that dying via barrel bombs are ok....as if there is a level of dying horribly that just tips a level of acceptability....When we know that the real reasons for the chemical weapons objection is national self interest.

Churchill's plan to attack the Soviets directly after WW2 made sense....but war exhaustion made it a non starter.

Churchill also had more sense than to try and fight a war at a distance along an extended front of largely unknown territory and in conditions he wasn't used to, which is more than can be said for Hitler.

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The Ferret
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Mapletree Croydon 21 Oct 18 12.34am
Originally posted by Lakeview Regarding why it happened: take a look at the Kaiser and what German dominance of Europe & the World would have meant. Germany was not a secure democracy and their record in their African empire was infamous. Their behaviour and war crimes as they swept through Belgium also stand out. It was a catastrophic loss of life, but at the time, and now by Max Hastings, Gary Sheffield and many historians, the fact that it was necessary, in a similar way to the necessity of World War II, is rightly recognised. Black Adder simply repeated the "War is hell" philosophy; of course that's true, but some wars-even with hindsight-were necessary evils to avoid a cruel and dictatorial power. And yet we are now content to leave the whole of mainland Europe effectively under German control. Something Churchill would never have countenanced Edited by Mapletree (21 Oct 2018 12.34am)
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Mapletree

Croydon 21 Oct 18 12.34am

Originally posted by Lakeview

Regarding why it happened: take a look at the Kaiser and what German dominance of Europe & the World would have meant. Germany was not a secure democracy and their record in their African empire was infamous. Their behaviour and war crimes as they swept through Belgium also stand out. It was a catastrophic loss of life, but at the time, and now by Max Hastings, Gary Sheffield and many historians, the fact that it was necessary, in a similar way to the necessity of World War II, is rightly recognised. Black Adder simply repeated the "War is hell" philosophy; of course that's true, but some wars-even with hindsight-were necessary evils to avoid a cruel and dictatorial power.

And yet we are now content to leave the whole of mainland Europe effectively under German control. Something Churchill would never have countenanced

Edited by Mapletree (21 Oct 2018 12.34am)

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johnno42000 21 Oct 18 1.15am
The Turks had a go at genocide in and after the First World War against the Armenians. 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'
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johnno42000

21 Oct 18 1.15am

The Turks had a go at genocide in and after the First World War against the Armenians.

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

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chateauferret 21 Oct 18 1.48am
Originally posted by Mapletree And yet we are now content to leave the whole of mainland Europe effectively under German control. Something Churchill would never have countenanced Edited by Mapletree (21 Oct 2018 12.34am) Except that this is a Germany that was rebuilt with the support, investment and resources of the Allied powers after the war. The government installed in Bonn under Adenauer in 1961 was no less influenced by the Western Allied powers than the one installed in the "GDR" was by the Soviet Union. But would you rather we had made the same mistakes as we did in 1919? Edited by chateauferret (21 Oct 2018 1.52am) ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

21 Oct 18 1.48am

Originally posted by Mapletree

And yet we are now content to leave the whole of mainland Europe effectively under German control. Something Churchill would never have countenanced

Edited by Mapletree (21 Oct 2018 12.34am)

Except that this is a Germany that was rebuilt with the support, investment and resources of the Allied powers after the war. The government installed in Bonn under Adenauer in 1961 was no less influenced by the Western Allied powers than the one installed in the "GDR" was by the Soviet Union. But would you rather we had made the same mistakes as we did in 1919?

Edited by chateauferret (21 Oct 2018 1.52am)

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Mapletree Croydon 21 Oct 18 9.45am
Originally posted by chateauferret Except that this is a Germany that was rebuilt with the support, investment and resources of the Allied powers after the war. The government installed in Bonn under Adenauer in 1961 was no less influenced by the Western Allied powers than the one installed in the "GDR" was by the Soviet Union. But would you rather we had made the same mistakes as we did in 1919? Edited by chateauferret (21 Oct 2018 1.52am) You don’t appear to address the issue Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism.
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Mapletree

Croydon 21 Oct 18 9.45am

Originally posted by chateauferret

Edited by chateauferret (21 Oct 2018 1.52am)

You don’t appear to address the issue

Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism.

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chateauferret 21 Oct 18 10.16am
Originally posted by Mapletree You don’t appear to address the issue Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism. But it seems to be OK for the United States to have economic and political dominance. ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

21 Oct 18 10.16am

Originally posted by Mapletree

You don’t appear to address the issue

Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism.

But it seems to be OK for the United States to have economic and political dominance.

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The Ferret
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Stirlingsays Online 21 Oct 18 10.19am
Originally posted by Mapletree You don’t appear to address the issue Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism. So your logic goes, we should stay inside the EU to counter Germany's growth towards imperialism. In reality by leaving the EU the UK weakens it and burdens Germany more. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

21 Oct 18 10.19am

Originally posted by Mapletree

You don’t appear to address the issue

Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism.

So your logic goes, we should stay inside the EU to counter Germany's growth towards imperialism.

In reality by leaving the EU the UK weakens it and burdens Germany more.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 21 Oct 18 1.29pm
Originally posted by Mapletree You don’t appear to address the issue Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism. It's already running the EU and Europe as its Fourth Reich. And the UK is propping up their status by being in the EU, paying millions each week for the privilege. Countries such as Ireland are completely subservient to Merkel and co.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 21 Oct 18 1.29pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

You don’t appear to address the issue

Germany through its economic dominance has the potential to be politically dominant, even more than now. Breaching the status quo will allow further economic and cultural imperialism.

It's already running the EU and Europe as its Fourth Reich. And the UK is propping up their status by being in the EU, paying millions each week for the privilege. Countries such as Ireland are completely subservient to Merkel and co.

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chateauferret 21 Oct 18 1.49pm
Originally posted by Penge Eagle It's already running the EU and Europe as its Fourth Reich. And the UK is propping up their status by being in the EU, paying millions each week for the privilege. Countries such as Ireland are completely subservient to Merkel and co. This use of the word Reich betrays a misunderstanding of the whole way Germany and Europe are organised. Reich implies centralisation of power and governance at one point, such as Berlin, whence everything is directed. Since 1961 Germany has been not a Reich but a Bund - those two words are effectively opposites. A Bund is a federation of states (Laender) each with its own administrative centre and devolved legislature, much as Scotland and Wales within the UK, and having a degree of autonomy which some states (e.g. Bavaria) value and exercise more than others (much as Scotland is more independently-minded than Wales is), Whether Europe is a Reich, a Bund or something else, smaller nations will always be dependent on larger ones for the markets, financial clout and military defence. You can choose to be friends with Germany or not, but if you are not you have to align with one of the other big boys. Whom do you prefer? America? No thanks. China? God forbid. ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

21 Oct 18 1.49pm

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

This use of the word Reich betrays a misunderstanding of the whole way Germany and Europe are organised. Reich implies centralisation of power and governance at one point, such as Berlin, whence everything is directed. Since 1961 Germany has been not a Reich but a Bund - those two words are effectively opposites. A Bund is a federation of states (Laender) each with its own administrative centre and devolved legislature, much as Scotland and Wales within the UK, and having a degree of autonomy which some states (e.g. Bavaria) value and exercise more than others (much as Scotland is more independently-minded than Wales is), Whether Europe is a Reich, a Bund or something else, smaller nations will always be dependent on larger ones for the markets, financial clout and military defence. You can choose to be friends with Germany or not, but if you are not you have to align with one of the other big boys. Whom do you prefer? America? No thanks. China? God forbid.

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The Ferret
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Stirlingsays Online 21 Oct 18 1.57pm
Originally posted by chateauferret Whom do you prefer? America? No thanks. China? God forbid. As if there is a third option....or an option not to choose. Anyway, explain why not America? Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Oct 2018 1.58pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

21 Oct 18 1.57pm

Originally posted by chateauferret

Whom do you prefer? America? No thanks. China? God forbid.

As if there is a third option....or an option not to choose.

Anyway, explain why not America?

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Oct 2018 1.58pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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chateauferret 21 Oct 18 2.00pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays As if there is a third option....or an option not to choose. Anyway, explain why not America? Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Oct 2018 1.58pm) Trump does that for me whenever he opens his mouth. Anyway we all know that leaving the EU will not mean we will no longer trade with the EU as many people seem to think. We will be like Switzerland, Norway and Iceland, which is to say we will have agreements with the EU over the matters where we need them, and gjetost will still be available in the delicatessen. ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

21 Oct 18 2.00pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

As if there is a third option....or an option not to choose.

Anyway, explain why not America?

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Oct 2018 1.58pm)

Trump does that for me whenever he opens his mouth.

Anyway we all know that leaving the EU will not mean we will no longer trade with the EU as many people seem to think. We will be like Switzerland, Norway and Iceland, which is to say we will have agreements with the EU over the matters where we need them, and gjetost will still be available in the delicatessen.

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The Ferret
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