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 EverybodyDannsNow  SE19 21 Jun 19 11.52am |
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Originally posted by cpfc_chap
How do you know it's a small percentage? i would say quite the opposite. The only ones who don't want a no deal are Parliament and they have to realise if the EU doesn't budge we need to walk. I said relatively small, as in less than a majority. The only ones who don’t want a no deal are Parliament? That’s not even close to being true.
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| Stirlingsays 21 Jun 19 11.58am |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
But who would such a cabinet be representing? Those in support of no deal make up a relatively small percentage of the population, and an even smaller percentage of Parliament - how can it be representative that the entire cabinet is made up of people supporting this one view?
It's a valid argument to talk in terms of 'what kind of leave' certainly but it wasn't a vote for a form of remain either. Now your point about there is no majority for a 'no deal' is also a valid one....though I've seen a poll that amongst leavers it's the most popular option. That said, it could be stated that many who voted remain weren't voting positively for the EU but rather in fear of it and would very much like it to change. But there is zero chance of that, as with what we have seen with the EU's behaviour up to now....it is very much a majority vanity and federalist activist project which would rather crash and burn than alter. Certain bureaucratic Politicans have been given huge amounts of power that they could never hope to have within their own countries and Turkeys don't vote for Xmas. That's not to say that there isn't a significant voice of remainers who don't agree with this activist vision...but just that they have never held the helm and have no chance too. The nature of the EU is to acquire more and more power over its 'states'. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Jun 2019 12.03pm)
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 21 Jun 19 12.00pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
As I mentioned,in my humble estimation the Cabinet must be one whose members are all signed up to No Deal if necessary, rather than those who are against No Deal at any cost.I don't believe the cabinet should be split on this major issue else there could well be problems not just for the PM but the Conservative Party. It will be of course up to Boris Johnson and I am not his advisor ! He is far more erudite than I am ! Off out now to team up with some of my Conservative chums !! And all Bojo supporters !
I understand the logic, but it still doesn’t answer the question of representativeness. It may achieve what you personally want it to, but the idea that only one view should be represented on the cabinet doesn’t sit right with me.
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 21 Jun 19 12.06pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's a valid argument to talk in terms of 'what kind of leave' certainly but it wasn't a vote for a form of remain either. Now your point about there is no majority for a 'no deal' is also a valid one....though I've seen a poll that amongst leavers it's the most popular option. That said, it could be stated that many who voted remain weren't voting positively for the EU but rather in fear of it and would very much like it to change. But there is zero chance of that, as with what we have seen with the EU's behaviour up to now....it is very much a majority vanity and federalist activist project which would rather crash and burn than alter. That's not to say that there isn't a significant voice of remainers who don't agree with this activist vision...but just that they have never held the helm and have no chance too. The nature of the EU is to acquire more and more power over its 'states'. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Jun 2019 12.00pm) But that’s my concern; there is no real discussion around what type of leave if we fill the cabinet exclusively with those happy to no-deal. Whether it’s the most popular option with leavers or not, there is no majority for it. The whole discussion has been very deliberately shifted into Brexit = No Deal, which was not even close to being the case at the point of the referendum.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 21 Jun 19 12.19pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
But that’s my concern; there is no real discussion around what type of leave if we fill the cabinet exclusively with those happy to no-deal. Whether it’s the most popular option with leavers or not, there is no majority for it. The whole discussion has been very deliberately shifted into Brexit = No Deal, which was not even close to being the case at the point of the referendum. That is the first thing the new PM will have to do. Explain what he is looking for in a new deal to his cabinet colleagues. If they don't agree with his vision they should not take the job. I am not proposing that the cabinet is packed full of no deal Brexiteers rather MPs who accept that if all else fails it is no deal. We have had cabinet responsibility for several hundred years on occasion ministers will resign as they cannot support a position and that is fair enough. What is not right is that ministers openly defy the agreed position which is what has happened over the last couple of years. Any other PM would have sacked people but May was too weak to do that.
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| Stirlingsays 21 Jun 19 12.22pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
But that’s my concern; there is no real discussion around what type of leave if we fill the cabinet exclusively with those happy to no-deal. The whole discussion has been very deliberately shifted into Brexit = No Deal, which was not even close to being the case at the point of the referendum.
Yet Labour still played the game to frustrate Brexit so playing the ball fairly as it should have been played has gone. Labour want an election....and once Johnson is MP, I think it's only right to give them that. I want something clear cut, leave the union or don't. If Labour win the election then we will stay.....If Johnson wins then the MP make up should be sufficient to leave in a more forthright fashion. That's how the election should be focused and.....while I've enjoyed the cut and thrust of the Brexit arguments these past few years......we really need to come to some resolution. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Jun 2019 12.22pm)
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 21 Jun 19 12.37pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yet Labour still played the game to frustrate Brexit so playing the ball fairly as it should have been played has gone. Labour want an election....and once Johnson is MP, I think it's only right to give them that. I want something clear cut, leave the union or don't. If Labour win the election then we will stay.....If Johnson wins then the MP make up should be sufficient to leave in a more forthright fashion. That's how the election should be focused and.....while I've enjoyed the cut and thrust of the Brexit arguments these past few years......we really need to come to some resolution. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Jun 2019 12.22pm) Agree - particularly on the second half of your post.
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 21 Jun 19 12.40pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
That is the first thing the new PM will have to do. Explain what he is looking for in a new deal to his cabinet colleagues. If they don't agree with his vision they should not take the job. I am not proposing that the cabinet is packed full of no deal Brexiteers rather MPs who accept that if all else fails it is no deal. We have had cabinet responsibility for several hundred years on occasion ministers will resign as they cannot support a position and that is fair enough. What is not right is that ministers openly defy the agreed position which is what has happened over the last couple of years. Any other PM would have sacked people but May was too weak to do that. A good point on previous resignations. I’d still question on what basis is no deal, or even a willingness to no deal, the agreed position, but understand the way you’ve framed it.
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| Stirlingsays 21 Jun 19 1.10pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Agree - particularly on the second half of your post. Yep, either way, there needs to be a majority in the house for something. I'm convinced that the only thing that parliament would vote yes for would be for more tea and biscuits. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Jun 2019 1.11pm)
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| Maine Eagle USA 21 Jun 19 4.15pm |
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Boris Johnson is a silly bumbling utterly dishonest fool, but, he either can actually be shrewd at times or more likely has shrewd operators around him. Such as the people trying to not let him snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the leadership contest by actually letting him open his mouth much. Does he really want to put his name on a no deal crash out of the EU, or is he just doing what Raab clearly alluded to which is keeping it there but not with any intention of actually doing it. Raab gave himself away and made it clear he wouldn't actually do it, he just genuinely wants it there on the table for the next round of failed unicorn talks with the EU. Bercow will use all of his power to stop it and a constitutional crisis will be in play if Boris attempts to Prorogue parliament and lock the front gates, dragging Lizzie into the mix. Does he have the balls for that, being the toff that he is? The Queen is kind of the Queen of toffs in a way so he would be throwing a fellow blue blood under the bus surely, which would bring dishonor on his name (a lot more than is already there). Its one thing to screw over plebs and commoners, but the Queen? Has he got the minerals to walk into old Liz's chambers and ask that question?
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| Stirlingsays 21 Jun 19 4.22pm |
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Originally posted by Maine Eagle
Boris Johnson is a silly bumbling utterly dishonest fool, but, he either can actually be shrewd at times or more likely has shrewd operators around him. Such as the people trying to not let him snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the leadership contest by actually letting him open his mouth much. Does he really want to put his name on a no deal crash out of the EU, or is he just doing what Raab clearly alluded to which is keeping it there but not with any intention of actually doing it. Raab gave himself away and made it clear he wouldn't actually do it, he just genuinely wants it there on the table for the next round of failed unicorn talks with the EU. Bercow will use all of his power to stop it and a constitutional crisis will be in play if Boris attempts to Prorogue parliament and lock the front gates, dragging Lizzie into the mix. Does he have the balls for that, being the toff that he is? The Queen is kind of the Queen of toffs in a way so he would be throwing a fellow blue blood under the bus surely, which would bring dishonor on his name (a lot more than is already there). Its one thing to screw over plebs and commoners, but the Queen? Has he got the minerals to walk into old Liz's chambers and ask that question? A highly entertaining post Mainey.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 21 Jun 19 4.30pm |
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Originally posted by Maine Eagle
Boris Johnson is a silly bumbling utterly dishonest fool, but, he either can actually be shrewd at times or more likely has shrewd operators around him. Such as the people trying to not let him snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the leadership contest by actually letting him open his mouth much. Does he really want to put his name on a no deal crash out of the EU, or is he just doing what Raab clearly alluded to which is keeping it there but not with any intention of actually doing it. Raab gave himself away and made it clear he wouldn't actually do it, he just genuinely wants it there on the table for the next round of failed unicorn talks with the EU. Bercow will use all of his power to stop it and a constitutional crisis will be in play if Boris attempts to Prorogue parliament and lock the front gates, dragging Lizzie into the mix. Does he have the balls for that, being the toff that he is? The Queen is kind of the Queen of toffs in a way so he would be throwing a fellow blue blood under the bus surely, which would bring dishonor on his name (a lot more than is already there). Its one thing to screw over plebs and commoners, but the Queen? Has he got the minerals to walk into old Liz's chambers and ask that question? Good post. The Queen has the right to prorogue parliament but I very much doubt she would exercise that right in this case. She has spent her life tip toeing around party politics and I can't see her getting involved now. The PM can recommend it but she does not have to take that advice.
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