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December 14 2019 7.35pm

Dealing with radicalised terrorists

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 02 Dec 19 3.30am Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

I think we need to have a hard look at the widely held belief you can de radicalise or that we have any ability to properly assess whether a convicted terrorist is ever fit to be released into general society.

The report that was largely suppressed and condensed by the Justice Dept under Gove had very strongly made the point you need to segregate Islamic jihadi prisoners from the general population and treat them quite different to general criminals.

This basically goes to internment type camps with very basic facilities for this type of offender. I would have no problem with this both from a security and economic viewpoint.

We need to take the view such offenders have burnt their bridges with out society which they want to destroy.

We might offer them the alternative of deportation to a country that wants them after a suitable period of punishment.

Please, let's stop kidding ourselves , in a very small number of cases of returning fighters there might be the possibility that they do not have harmful intentions to the UK, but anyone convicted of domestic terrorism whatever the " cause " needs to understand that is the end of their life as a part of society.

The murderer of Jo Cox would fall into this category, as would anybody who plotted to cause death in the UK and anybody who aided them.

The assumption that closed communities will suddenly start turning in their own to the security services if we have more community police is delusional.

I spent a lot of time this weekend thinking about the families and loved ones of the two murder victims and injured victims at London Bridge.

Perhaps I have this entirely wrong and it is a knee jerk to the terrible events of last Friday but whatever we are currently doing is clearly not working.


 


Let's see SP and the board trying to line up for a piss in the AW toilets at half time before peddling the new stand. We're the Arthur over here and the facilities are a disgrace

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 02 Dec 19 8.49am Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

Rabid dogs dont get better.

 

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View Elpis's Profile Elpis Flag In a pub 02 Dec 19 8.55am Send a Private Message to Elpis Add Elpis as a friend

The armed policeman on the bridge had the right idea of what to do with those with the Jihadi virus .

I do think they should not be living in the UK ,or anywhere in Europe for that matter and like your idea that the option of deportation should be offered rather than parole .

 

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 02 Dec 19 8.59am Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

Originally posted by Elpis

The armed policeman on the bridge had the right idea of what to do with those with the Jihadi virus .

I do think they should not be living in the UK ,or anywhere in Europe for that matter and like your idea that the option of deportation should be offered rather than parole .

I would go further and bring back capital punishment. Why deport them so they come back again.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 02 Dec 19 9.59am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Much as I am for hanging and flogging it's not going to happen.

We can however change the rules around deportation of of foreign criminals. When sentencing a judge should automatically order a criminal is deported at the end of the sentence this becomes the default state rather than the authorities having to initiate it.

Whilst he is serving his sentence he can appeal but at the end of his sentence he is deported, if the appeal process is still going on he can appeal from the country where his has been sent.

The basis of any appeal has to be to prove that the individual is a fit and worth person to remain in our society rather than society having to prove that the person is a danger.

This would mean changes to the Human Rights law by way of adding a "responsibilities and duties" clause

This won't solve all problems but its a start.

 


One more point

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 02 Dec 19 10.05am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

HKOwen makes some salient points but he and we know that the mindset of the middle and higher classes that dominate the institutions and political classes are a million miles away from action like that.

It's far closer to that tweet send by the murdered son's family. They are all still singing Lennon's 'imagine'.

They appear to believe that it can all be made to work....Perhaps it's the filtered lives, because if you filter people.....it can in a way.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Dec 2019 11.05am)

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 02 Dec 19 11.30am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

It does present a range of questions that need to be asked.

Now from what I am reading around the edges of this terrible tragedy, this Khan scumbag was actually an invited guest to this conference on rehabilitation. Might even have been touted around as one of their success stories. This was no random attack aimed at just garnering headlines. This was a specific, targetted mission.

Ok. Let me put this out there and I am doing so for purposes of debate. What if this particular scumbag hated rehabilitation programs like this because they were too successful? That for many of his colleagues who also went through the process that they emerged on the other side as people able to fit back into society again?

That his actions were deliberate in that he knew, or the people ordering him from above, want such programs closed down?

Trying to think around the edges here, to come at the incident from a different angle because this attack did have a crucial difference from the previous spate of others in that it had a focus.

Perhaps I am reading to much into this all but this one stinks. And I refuse to believe this guy acted all alone. No way. Prior to it he clearly sort of hide his motives for a fair old while, willing to no doubt submit himself to all sorts of subtefuge. Even heresy on some level because he would have had to disown his clearly still held extremist views.

I share the knee-jerk instincts on this one and know that the cops involved had to kill him. Understand and agree with all the reasons why. But for once it would have been good to have had a chance to actually question this f***er.

Because this one is different. No way did this guy act alone. This was a specifically political target. He was far more than the usual jihadi loser scumbag.

Edited by Matov (02 Dec 2019 11.31am)

Edited by Matov (02 Dec 2019 11.32am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 02 Dec 19 11.37am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

It does present a range of questions that need to be asked.

Now from what I am reading around the edges of this terrible tragedy, this Khan scumbag was actually an invited guest to this conference on rehabilitation. Might even have been touted around as one of their success stories. This was no random attack aimed at just garnering headlines. This was a specific, targetted mission.

Ok. Let me put this out there and I am doing so for purposes of debate. What if this particular scumbag hated rehabilitation programs like this because they were too successful? That for many of his colleagues who also went through the process that they emerged on the other side as people able to fit back into society again?

That his actions were deliberate in that he knew, or the people ordering him from above, want such programs closed down?


Edited by Matov (02 Dec 2019 11.31am)

Edited by Matov (02 Dec 2019 11.32am)

What is it.....15 Islamic plots broken up in the last two years...A demographic that's growing every year....and a huge security budget.

Sticking plaster responses by a totally inadequate system.


Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Dec 2019 11.39am)

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 02 Dec 19 11.43am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

What is it.....15 Islamic plots broken up in the last two years.....A demographic that's growing every year.

Sticking plasters responses by a totally inadequate system.

I don't necessarily disagree with your wider analysis but the part of the problem with how we have dealt with it all so far is that our political system seems only capable of reacting.

My own left-field solution is fracking. Energy independence. Once we have freed ourselves from the constraints of the petro-dollar then the political influence wanes considerably. Then decisions can be made that make a difference.

But in the case of this specific attack, the ramifications run far deeper than the usual lunatic(s) attack random crowds. That is what needs to be understood here. This is a new direction. Must not be filed away with the others.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 02 Dec 19 11.52am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

I don't necessarily disagree with your wider analysis but the part of the problem with how we have dealt with it all so far is that our political system seems only capable of reacting.

My own left-field solution is fracking. Energy independence. Once we have freed ourselves from the constraints of the petro-dollar then the political influence wanes considerably. Then decisions can be made that make a difference.

But in the case of this specific attack, the ramifications run far deeper than the usual lunatic(s) attack random crowds. That is what needs to be understood here. This is a new direction. Must not be filed away with the others.

Interesting perspective.

One thing is for sure, the current approach is about as successful as Corbyn's Tinder page.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Dec 2019 11.52am)

 

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 02 Dec 19 11.59am Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

Good to see thought out replies.

Needs to be very clear to any would be murderer , if you at anytime offer a threat to an armed officer expect to be shot dead.

I won't get Corbyn's endorsement on this.

There seems to be a growing realisation/sentiment we can't treat jihadists as ordinary criminals and treat them similarly when incarcerated.

The comments of Mr Acheson the ex prison governor were shocking, basically prisons were radicalisation centres with in some cases hard line literature and sympathetic imams allowed.

It is completely different to the IRA in as much as their aims were relatively specific and political whereas the jihadists want to destroy our society and kill as many non muslims as possible.

I don't think we have grasped this yet.

Edited by HKOwen (02 Dec 2019 12.04pm)

 


Let's see SP and the board trying to line up for a piss in the AW toilets at half time before peddling the new stand. We're the Arthur over here and the facilities are a disgrace

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 02 Dec 19 12.12pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by HKOwen

Good to see thought out replies.

Needs to be very clear to any would be murderer , if you at anytime offer a threat to an armed officer expect to be shot dead.

I won't get Corbyn's endorsement on this.


Edited by HKOwen (02 Dec 2019 12.04pm)

Actually, and I loathe defending Corbyn, I suspect he would fully subscribe to the current policy. If somebody presents as wearing an IED, then shooting to kill is the only option open. That has already been politically agreed upon. My understanding is that the cop involved would get in trouble if he did not open fire (but am happy to be corrected on that). The wider duty of care is to the public. No politician serious about wider public office could ever deny that.

But Khan knew that. As did the 3 who ran amok in the same location a couple of years ago. Shoot to kill is not a deterrent with these loons. It is part of the attraction. And to be honest, it is a sign of failure on the part of our Government. If it gets to that stage then it is just a case of limiting the potential damage. Killing a terrorist in that manner is a sign we have actually lost.

 

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