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October 24 2020 1.29am

Breaking the law,

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View Tim Gypsy Hill '64's Profile Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Flag Stoke sub normal 25 Sep 20 8.56pm Send a Private Message to Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Add Tim Gypsy Hill '64 as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

Ask yourself that question. Now as I said move on.

Show me the evidence, or can you not? Why did you feel the need to call me "Timmy"? What was the reason for that? Why did you make assumptions about me?

Try looking at what I am disputing and not take it as a personal attack. And also stop being condescending. What is wrong with you?

 


Systematically dragged down by the lawmakers

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 25 Sep 20 9.08pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

The effect on the economy is containable.
For whatever reason finance and economies rise and fall. The help about this time is phenominal and unprecedented. That is worldwide and even in third world countries help is available for the majority.
It seems we as a species do have a heart! The health situation is the priority end of. Without our health what use is money.


It's certainly a tricky balance and any approach looks like the wrong one, as the result is worse than the status quo. I feel for the situation businesses are in, so wouldn't favour lockdown 2, but then i'm just watching this unfold like everyone else and who knows how bad things will be in a month or twos time. We're all winging it. I agree with you that it's been heartening to see poeple doing their bit. Whether it's getting shopping for a neighbour, or taking steps to help the elderly or vulnerable remain as safe as is possible during this difficult time.

Edited by BlueJay (25 Sep 2020 9.36pm)

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 25 Sep 20 9.20pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by The Dolphin

Masks are without doubt not perfect but if you cough or splutter wearing one the damage is way less than without one.
Ask ten Scientists about masks and half will say they work and half the other way.
I don't like them but I wear them when required.
Why break the law for something that doesn't really affect you?
The ones who will complain most when locked down are those that flout the rules - just stupid in my opinion.

Certainly. Wearing a good quality mask significantly reduces particle emission and distance, which can only be a good thing on multiple fronts.

"Unsurprisingly, they found N95 masks to be the most effective at reducing the horizontal spread of a cough. The N95 masks reduced a cough’s initial velocity by up to a factor of 10 and limit its spread to between 0.1 and 0.25 meters.

An uncovered cough, in contrast, can travel up to 3 meters, but even a simple disposable mask can bring this all the way down to 0.5 meters.

“Even if a mask does not filter out all the particles, if we can prevent clouds of such particles from traveling very far, it’s better than not doing anything,” said Simha. “In situations where sophisticated masks are not available, any mask is better than no mask at all for the general public in slowing the spread of infection.”


Who'd have thunk it.

[Link]

 

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View Tim Gypsy Hill '64's Profile Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Flag Stoke sub normal 25 Sep 20 10.00pm Send a Private Message to Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Add Tim Gypsy Hill '64 as a friend

We don't have N95 masks. That is a USA rating. We have FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 as masks that may help. FFP1 lets through 22% of particles. The other two, 8% and 2% respectively. Anyting else is really no better that using a tissue to sneeze into.

I have to use masks at work. FFP3 as a matter of fact. And certain chemicals penetrate them. We have to ensure that each employee has a "face fit test" because not all masks fit all faces. For example, female faces are different from male faces. And the same goes for different ethnicites.

Some people need to research this a bit more.

 


Systematically dragged down by the lawmakers

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 25 Sep 20 11.03pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64

We don't have N95 masks. That is a USA rating. We have FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 as masks that may help. FFP1 lets through 22% of particles. The other two, 8% and 2% respectively. Anyting else is really no better that using a tissue to sneeze into.

I have to use masks at work. FFP3 as a matter of fact. And certain chemicals penetrate them. We have to ensure that each employee has a "face fit test" because not all masks fit all faces. For example, female faces are different from male faces. And the same goes for different ethnicites.

Some people need to research this a bit more.

Oh do they?

More pointless and condescending hair splitting from someone looking to annoy rather than to make an actual point. They used N95 masks in the study. It wasn't a European study. You seem to keep arguing points not made, with people not making them.

I well understand that in Europe we'd be looking to reach for a FFP3 mask, which for all intents and purposes serves the exact same purpose and is the mask(s) I use and own too.

The study was designed to demonstrate that quality masks (and to a lesser extent other masks and methods) do limit a coughs velocity, distance and can dramatically impact the number of particles spread. I posted it as it may guide people or be of interest to them at least. It's not an 'in' for yet another argument about nothing.

Edited by BlueJay (26 Sep 2020 12.33am)

 

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View Tim Gypsy Hill '64's Profile Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Flag Stoke sub normal 26 Sep 20 1.26am Send a Private Message to Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Add Tim Gypsy Hill '64 as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

Oh do they?

More pointless and condescending hair splitting from someone looking to annoy rather than to make an actual point. They used N95 masks in the study. It wasn't a European study. You seem to keep arguing points not made, with people not making them.

I well understand that in Europe we'd be looking to reach for a FFP3 mask, which for all intents and purposes serves the exact same purpose and is the mask(s) I use and own too.

The study was designed to demonstrate that quality masks (and to a lesser extent other masks and methods) do limit a coughs velocity, distance and can dramatically impact the number of particles spread. I posted it as it may guide people or be of interest to them at least. It's not an 'in' for yet another argument about nothing.

Edited by BlueJay (26 Sep 2020 12.33am)

You really don't understand. It's futile for me to try and explain it to you. But here goes. Almost nobody uses FFP masks. And the advice is "face coverings". Which is what most people are wearing. Home made cloth face coverings. That's the same as wearing a balaclava, or bandanna over your nose/mouth. It stops next to nothing. Also these face coverings are put on and removed more often than hand washing occurs. They are preventing nothing as the virus spreads just as easily on surfaces which have been touched. By hands which have touched a mask that may have stopped the virus from being inhaled. The irony of masks is incredible. If one was put on and not touched until it was disposed of and hands disinfected, there might be a reduction in the spread. But that just doesn't happen. Masks/face coverings are used to enter places where they are required, and removed when leaving. They are then placed in bags or pockets until required again. If you think this doesn't happen, pluck up the courage to go and stand outside your local supermarket.

Where is the evidence that they restrict the spread of anything?

 


Systematically dragged down by the lawmakers

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 26 Sep 20 3.02am Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64

You really don't understand. It's futile for me to try and explain it to you. But here goes. Almost nobody uses FFP masks. And the advice is "face coverings". Which is what most people are wearing. Home made cloth face coverings. That's the same as wearing a balaclava, or bandanna over your nose/mouth. It stops next to nothing.

Moved on from the N95 non point then have we... Now more condescending takes..

People are capable of buying whatever mask they wish. I already stated what mask I have and of course in posting the above study am conveying that some offer more protection than others. Again, you're not revealing some grand secret or understanding. You're literally stating what I and the study already said. Personally, wear a mask that best protects yourself and others. Lesser standard masks offer less, but some protection. That's it.

So now the 'masks don't work' idea is out of the window suddenly you've pivoted to the 'speculative' "They are preventing nothing as the virus spreads just as easily on surfaces which have been touched." Well then be careful about what you touch. It's a bit easier to clean your hands than the inside of your lungs. All you can do as an individual is try to do your best by others and yourself and be as careful as you can. Hunting for reasons not to bother isn't particularly useful.

Wearing a good quality mask during a pandemic is very obviously a better idea than not and as shown has firm scientific rationale behind it, as is being careful in a sensible fashion in order to protect yourself and others. If you're too geared towards forcing a certain take that you don't see that then just get on with whatever approach you personally want to follow and do as you wish. I'm not interested in continuing this endless back and forth really. Let's end it there with points expressed.

Edited by BlueJay (26 Sep 2020 3.52pm)

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag Chatham 26 Sep 20 5.18am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64

The effect on the economy is going to kill a lot more people than the virus. The financial aid to companies this time is going to see far more job losses than furlough. Corporations might be able to survive, but smaller buisinesses will have to get rid of staff, or close down. Without money, there is worse health. Check out third world countries.......

Were you here in the 80s.
Did you get affected with little or no help.
Now that was a recession of some magnitude,this doesnt get near. No eviction protection,no mortgage holidays,no easy claim from HMG. That is all available for unfortunate situations today.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag Chatham 26 Sep 20 5.25am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64

You really don't understand. It's futile for me to try and explain it to you. But here goes. Almost nobody uses FFP masks. And the advice is "face coverings". Which is what most people are wearing. Home made cloth face coverings. That's the same as wearing a balaclava, or bandanna over your nose/mouth. It stops next to nothing. Also these face coverings are put on and removed more often than hand washing occurs. They are preventing nothing as the virus spreads just as easily on surfaces which have been touched. By hands which have touched a mask that may have stopped the virus from being inhaled. The irony of masks is incredible. If one was put on and not touched until it was disposed of and hands disinfected, there might be a reduction in the spread. But that just doesn't happen. Masks/face coverings are used to enter places where they are required, and removed when leaving. They are then placed in bags or pockets until required again. If you think this doesn't happen, pluck up the courage to go and stand outside your local supermarket.

Where is the evidence that they restrict the spread of anything?

But stopping next to nothing must still be better than stopping nothing at all. That is the whole point. If particles from a mouth are hypothetically a 1000 from a cough to 3m without a mask and say 700 and 2m with the simplest covering; we know what's going to have less potential to spread the virus. Minimal yes but still less risk. One less infection is good.

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 26 Sep 20 1.58pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

But stopping next to nothing must still be better than stopping nothing at all. That is the whole point. If particles from a mouth are hypothetically a 1000 from a cough to 3m without a mask and say 700 and 2m with the simplest covering; we know what's going to have less potential to spread the virus. Minimal yes but still less risk. One less infection is good.

Yes, it is certainly more protective of yourself and others than not bothering. There is less chance of being exposed to the virus in the air especially which is clearly the hardest thing to otherwise get away from if you're breathing in an enclosed environment. There is also, again, a decent hypotheses being explored with some scientific backing, that the less virus you're exposed to the better your outcome may be. So masks may be a good decision for multiple reason.

For those willing to weigh up the pros and cons of taking simple steps for themselves and others health, vs not, I don't think it's the most difficult decision they'll ever make! There is a much bigger potential price to pay in one direction than the other. It's heartening that many are thinking of others and doing their bit!


Edited by BlueJay (26 Sep 2020 3.55pm)

 

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