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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 21 10.36am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

I understand your point but just as it is almost impossible to tell what part of the world a white person comes from, are you able to tell the difference between an African and a Caribbean person just by looking. Some would consider getting that wrong to be more discriminatory than whether they are black or white.

I understand your point too but does it actually matter whether at first glance we are unable to classify someone?

Would it not produce a more healthy society if we were unable to make judgements solely on appearances and had instead to wait until the character was revealed?

 


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View Belmont's Profile Belmont Flag 20 Feb 21 10.36am Send a Private Message to Belmont Add Belmont as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


Well skin colour is just an easy label lacking nuance but easy for simple humans to grasp. Many nowadays claim that skin colour is unimportant and then promote Blackness for example.
That cake and eat it double standard with pride in colour is the issue for me. White people are no longer allowed to be proud of being White because they are stereotyped as National Front types. Everyone else is free to use divisive terminology and propaganda.

Personally I find pride in colour ridiculous. It's tribalism pure and simple.

But as you yourself said " but stereotypes do not get invented from nothing"

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Feb 21 11.00am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't disagree with you. I want everyone, whatever their skin colour, to stop labelling themselves by it.

I can understand why those marginalised by racism fight back and then why those who aren't themselves racist react to that fight.

My point is about the use of language and whether it helps or hinders relationships. If it hinders then change it.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of mileage in division for politicians and activists of a certain type.
Unfortunately, these kinds of people blur the lines of people's genuine concerns around prejudice and immigration.
There are perfectly reasonable concerns by all parties around the mixing of cultures, the issues surrounding being a minority, criminality among minorities, the loss of traditional British culture and the future political and heritage issues around the rapid and huge influx of non Europeans.
There are those who encourage and exploit the darker side of that for their own ends. This does not make the concern any more or less reasonable.
The terms Black and White are divisive, and I believe that minorities in particular hurt themselves by using these labels. They will never be considered truly part of the homogenous group until they become colour blind.
For the European British, I see no reason why anyone should be expected or forced to like or accept the rapid reduction and replacement or their kind by migrants.
It is just not natural to celebrate the demise of your genetic heritage and future. If you do, it is through years of brainwashing.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 20 Feb 21 11.16am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

More personal insults! Just a tad ironic perhaps from the poster who complains about those who don't debate?

If I was "lying" then it would be more constructive to point out how and where. Actually all I have done is offer an alternative opinion. Here is another.

The idea that video shows your ancestors is as distorted a concept as it's possible to portray. I might be wrong but I doubt any of us had relatives that lived in huge mansions and could afford early movie cameras. What's certain is not all of us did. Most of us come from the working classes who were downtrodden and marginalised by the sort of people shown in that video.

Please don't comment on a video you obviously hardly watched. Then again your inaccurate commentary is perhaps fitting as it is at least consistent.

You have a point about calling you a liar rather than debating the points....but I've done that countless times with you and frankly my description of you comes from those experiences.

Over the years I've debated many people on the left on this forum and out of all of them you're the least honest and have the least conscience about it. My interest in debating bad faith actors has fallen rapidly.

However, I accept you have a point here about using that word without expansion onto specifics so I'll stop calling you it without explaining why from here on.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 20 Feb 21 12.52pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Belmont

But as you yourself said " but stereotypes do not get invented from nothing"

What a delicious statement - made apparently free from any irony.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 21 12.54pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Please don't comment on a video you obviously hardly watched. Then again your inaccurate commentary is perhaps fitting as it is at least consistent.

You have a point about calling you a liar rather than debating the points....but I've done that countless times with you and frankly my description of you comes from those experiences.

Over the years I've debated many people on the left on this forum and out of all of them you're the least honest and have the least conscience about it. My interest in debating bad faith actors has fallen rapidly.

However, I accept you have a point here about using that word without expansion onto specifics so I'll stop calling you it without explaining why from here on.

Oh I watched it in full. You have no idea what you are talking about. That a few of the lower classes were rounded up and encouraged to wave at a new-fangled device to keep their masters happy and them in their places rather effectively makes my point.

As I have frequently told you there is no need at all to respond to any of my comments. That's your choice but should you do so I expect to be shown the same respect as anyone else and not routinely insulted. If you disagree then say why backed up by reason and not assertion. You can disagree with me to your heart's content but calling me a "bad faith actor" is neither accurate nor acceptable.

It would be very easy for me to insult you regularly as the tone of your posts lay them open to easy insults, coming as they do from the far-right fringes. I try hard not to do lower myself to such a level though.

I have also told you many times that my politics are very far from being on the "left". That you believe I am on the "left" simply confirms just how far to the right you are. I believe in the benefits of capitalism but with a safety net to catch the genuinely disadvantaged. I am a social democrat and am proud that the system we have in the UK is a model of social democracy.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 21 12.59pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Unfortunately, there is a lot of mileage in division for politicians and activists of a certain type.
Unfortunately, these kinds of people blur the lines of people's genuine concerns around prejudice and immigration.
There are perfectly reasonable concerns by all parties around the mixing of cultures, the issues surrounding being a minority, criminality among minorities, the loss of traditional British culture and the future political and heritage issues around the rapid and huge influx of non Europeans.
There are those who encourage and exploit the darker side of that for their own ends. This does not make the concern any more or less reasonable.
The terms Black and White are divisive, and I believe that minorities in particular hurt themselves by using these labels. They will never be considered truly part of the homogenous group until they become colour blind.
For the European British, I see no reason why anyone should be expected or forced to like or accept the rapid reduction and replacement or their kind by migrants.
It is just not natural to celebrate the demise of your genetic heritage and future. If you do, it is through years of brainwashing.

There is a lot of truth in what you say and we seem to be reaching a mutual understanding on this matter.

How we handle these issues going forward isn't easy but that we need to do so without adding divisions that can be avoided just makes sense to me.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Feb 21 1.06pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Belmont

But as you yourself said " but stereotypes do not get invented from nothing"

I think it is a stretch to brand millions of people as far right loons because a few thousand are.
I think stereotyping usually requires a disproportion of characteristics that are way above the average. A hugely disproportionate propensity to knife crime for example.
Equally, sometimes stereotyping is just a lazy reference or a political weapon.
Branding anyone who objects to mass immigration or who wanted to leave the EU as a racist is an example of the latter. And of course, not all people who wanted to leave the EU or object to mass immigration are White.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 20 Feb 21 1.46pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I understand your point too but does it actually matter whether at first glance we are unable to classify someone?

Would it not produce a more healthy society if we were unable to make judgements solely on appearances and had instead to wait until the character was revealed?

Ok let's say a coal coloured person and a mountain tips in the Himalayas coloured person.

 

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View Belmont's Profile Belmont Flag 20 Feb 21 1.59pm Send a Private Message to Belmont Add Belmont as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

What a delicious statement - made apparently free from any irony.

Believe me I posted that because I thought the posts preceding mine were extremely ironic in fact so much so I was laughing when I posted it, so I thought I would post a little irony of my own.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 20 Feb 21 2.04pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Oh I watched it in full. You have no idea what you are talking about. That a few of the lower classes were rounded up and encouraged to wave at a new-fangled device to keep their masters happy and them in their places rather effectively makes my point.

Ok, I urge all who read this to watch that video and especially the parts where the working class are shown. At that point you can make the decision for yourself of the footage and whether this poster is a liar or at the very least can be said to be a reliable reporter of an event.


Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

As I have frequently told you there is no need at all to respond to any of my comments. That's your choice but should you do so I expect to be shown the same respect as anyone else and not routinely insulted. If you disagree then say why backed up by reason and not assertion. You can disagree with me to your heart's content but calling me a "bad faith actor" is neither accurate nor acceptable.

It would be very easy for me to insult you regularly as the tone of your posts lay them open to easy insults, coming as they do from the far-right fringes. I try hard not to do lower myself to such a level though.

The problem here is I have no respect for you. While it's obvious that you are intelligent I regard you as ethically immoral. While we have considerable political differences this is in principle due to your support of the Police during the rape scandals.

It isn't helped by your pin dancing, elitist near worship and...to my mind at least regular misleading statements to suit whatever position you wish to take. However, these latter reasons are dwarfed by the former.

As for how I describe you or what I say here, while I will consider reasonable requests (ie back up claims of lying) that's about it.

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have also told you many times that my politics are very far from being on the "left". That you believe I am on the "left" simply confirms just how far to the right you are. I believe in the benefits of capitalism but with a safety net to catch the genuinely disadvantaged. I am a social democrat and am proud that the system we have in the UK is a model of social democracy.

I consider this a lie.

The evidence is that I've never read anything from you that can be said to be socially conservative. I have little doubt that you care about your fiscal situation and that anything remotely connected to your wealth is strictly conservative.

However, that's no different to the far left running Google or Facebook.

Tell us, where do you differ from the far left on any social policies?

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Feb 2021 2.47pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 20 Feb 21 2.06pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Belmont

Believe me I posted that because I thought the posts preceding mine were extremely ironic in fact so much so I was laughing when I posted it, so I thought I would post a little irony of my own.

Fair enough.

I agree with you that there are truths in stereotypes but also that they are often caricatures when it comes to the individual.

We all use them to navigate the world to some degree or other.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Feb 2021 2.07pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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