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December 8 2022 4.51pm

Mason Greenwood

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BlueJay Flag UK 31 Jan 22 12.38pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

did Marlon King continue to get lucrative contracts even after it was evident he was a 'wrong un' ?

Having a criminal record should de-bar anybody from Professional Football.

'If' the audio is genuine, there is zero chance he will play in this country again. There is something very different about hearing a crime as repugnant as this panning out rather than reading about it.

 

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View CrazyBadger's Profile CrazyBadger Flag Ware 31 Jan 22 1.47pm Send a Private Message to CrazyBadger Add CrazyBadger as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I don't agree - there are no circumstances where that audio is acceptable. It sounds just like him, she uses his name, they have a known history together... so regardless of the rest, I can be 99% confident that is him I'm listening to, and I can therefore be 100% confident that he's an utter scumbag. I don't need a load of bluster from expensive lawyers to be sure of that.

You don't need to view Instagram as valid - the victim of the abuse decided it was her best course of action, and it worked. It is these type of narratives on how you're supposed to react which really damage victim's credibility. I also think your first reaction being to question whether the blood is real is unhelpful, to put it politely.

Given how hard it is for women to get a conviction on these types of charges, I do not at all agree that the court trial is when we can decide how to react - it is essentially fact that Ronaldo has raped someone, and yet he is drowned in adoration every week.

Edited by EverybodyDannsNow (31 Jan 2022 12.34pm)

I don't/can't agree with this. We live in a society whereby guilt and punishment are to be decided in a court of law, and not offered out to society for mob justice.

To say that 'the victim of the abuse decided it was her best course of action, and it worked' tells me that you've already decided who the victim is, and that you've already decided what the outcome should be - based on your own judgement that it sounds a bit like him in the tape. Regardless Of the what the legal system offers, he'll be forever guilty in your book.

Just because something appears to have happened as it's the most likely, or easily explainable does not mean this is what has happened.
This is why we have the system we do, and exactly the reason names and details should be kept out of the press/media until the case has been tried. But that does not sit correctly with the gossip hungry keyboard warriors ready to pass judgement on things That offends them. Furthermore, this may even hurt the case against the defendant, and increase the chances of mis-trial. I want the guilty person to be held accountable and justice to be served to whomsoever the victim is proven to be.

It's not 100%, and there are certainly sides of it that are less than ideal(out of court settlements for instance), but it's the best system we have.

I'm not saying that I necessarily think you're wrong in your assumptions - but they are only assumptions and unless you are working the case, have not verified the validity of any of the claims made or any of the evidence submitted by Instagram. You have not heard both sides of the story, and so making those assumptions on half of the data.

Finally, I agree that it's hard for a Woman to get convictions for these types of charges. but what would you prefer? A system where someone shouts Rape, and an innocent gets jailed?

 


I like my coffee black, just like my metal

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 22 2.25pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

I don't/can't agree with this. We live in a society whereby guilt and punishment are to be decided in a court of law, and not offered out to society for mob justice.

To say that 'the victim of the abuse decided it was her best course of action, and it worked' tells me that you've already decided who the victim is, and that you've already decided what the outcome should be - based on your own judgement that it sounds a bit like him in the tape. Regardless Of the what the legal system offers, he'll be forever guilty in your book.

Just because something appears to have happened as it's the most likely, or easily explainable does not mean this is what has happened.
This is why we have the system we do, and exactly the reason names and details should be kept out of the press/media until the case has been tried. But that does not sit correctly with the gossip hungry keyboard warriors ready to pass judgement on things That offends them. Furthermore, this may even hurt the case against the defendant, and increase the chances of mis-trial. I want the guilty person to be held accountable and justice to be served to whomsoever the victim is proven to be.

It's not 100%, and there are certainly sides of it that are less than ideal(out of court settlements for instance), but it's the best system we have.

I'm not saying that I necessarily think you're wrong in your assumptions - but they are only assumptions and unless you are working the case, have not verified the validity of any of the claims made or any of the evidence submitted by Instagram. You have not heard both sides of the story, and so making those assumptions on half of the data.

Finally, I agree that it's hard for a Woman to get convictions for these types of charges. but what would you prefer? A system where someone shouts Rape, and an innocent gets jailed?

So what do you do when that system fails to do it's job on a huge scale over decades? Continue to keep faith with it indefinitely?

If someone can offer me one reasonable suggestion as to how that audio is dismissed, I'd be really interested to hear it.. genuinely, what are we suggesting? It's staged? Not him? I don't get it.

I don't see another side to this story - what could it possibly look like


Rape is convicted at roughly 1.6% of allegations... I'm not suggesting we just start throwing people in jail for the mere allegation, but does a conviction rate of 1.6% not suggest to you that the current system offers insufficient protection?

 

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View taylors lovechild's Profile taylors lovechild Flag 31 Jan 22 2.46pm Send a Private Message to taylors lovechild Add taylors lovechild as a friend

In an ideal world the Criminal Justice System ensures that the majority of cases are trialled and those found guilty convicted. In reality pretty much no one gets convicted of rape (less than 2% of cases brought to the police ended in conviction last year [Link] ) and the system is struggling to address the issue due to government cuts alongside other issues like the Catch 22 scenario whereby the police see little point in taking cases to court due to the lack of convictions.

If Greenwood is guilty then I hope he is dealt with to the full extent of the law as a lesson (as if one should be needed) that his actions were abhorrent and will end in jail. The reality is if there's a way out his expensively assembled legal team will find it.

As an aside, is there a bigger issue at United? They now have Ronaldo, Greenwood and Maguire who have been accused of serious crimes, two of which have seemingly escaped any real punishment. There were also stories in the media about an escort giving services to a few of their players. Maybe there's a deeper problem at the club?

Edited by taylors lovechild (31 Jan 2022 2.47pm)

 

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View The Dolphin's Profile The Dolphin Flag 31 Jan 22 3.24pm Send a Private Message to The Dolphin Add The Dolphin as a friend

As others have said - if he is guilty then throw the book at him.
However, trial by Instagram is not a court of law and until the facts are properly known we should rightly be a little careful.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 31 Jan 22 3.46pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

So what do you do when that system fails to do it's job on a huge scale over decades? Continue to keep faith with it indefinitely?

If someone can offer me one reasonable suggestion as to how that audio is dismissed, I'd be really interested to hear it.. genuinely, what are we suggesting? It's staged? Not him? I don't get it.

I don't see another side to this story - what could it possibly look like


Rape is convicted at roughly 1.6% of allegations... I'm not suggesting we just start throwing people in jail for the mere allegation, but does a conviction rate of 1.6% not suggest to you that the current system offers insufficient protection?

A lot of people will tell you that the system is broken when it comes to rape cases, however not that many have a practical solution within the assumption of innocent until proven guilty.

Most of the solutions are really guilty until proven innocent e.g. extra weight should be given to the victim's statement.

I wish I had a suggestion but I don't unless we do away with the presumption of innocence and i can see an argument for that however it has to be for all crimes and not just rape.

Edited by Badger11 (31 Jan 2022 3.46pm)

 


One more point

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View CrazyBadger's Profile CrazyBadger Flag Ware 31 Jan 22 3.53pm Send a Private Message to CrazyBadger Add CrazyBadger as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

So what do you do when that system fails to do it's job on a huge scale over decades? Continue to keep faith with it indefinitely?

If someone can offer me one reasonable suggestion as to how that audio is dismissed, I'd be really interested to hear it.. genuinely, what are we suggesting? It's staged? Not him? I don't get it.

I don't see another side to this story - what could it possibly look like


Rape is convicted at roughly 1.6% of allegations... I'm not suggesting we just start throwing people in jail for the mere allegation, but does a conviction rate of 1.6% not suggest to you that the current system offers insufficient protection?

It does suggest that, yes. But we should strive to make the system better. Rape is often hard to convict in a system where it's the prosecutors job to prove guilt - rather than the defendants job to prove innocence. It's often a case Of 1 Persons word against another, with a lack of physical evidence.
I wouldn't want a system where it's guilty Until proven innocent?
Perhaps we use 'Upload's solution of an 'I consent' app?

Again, It's not for us to offer a reasonable suggestion as to why evidence should be dismissed. But it should be used within proper context in a fact based conversation, where all parties can have an input.

 


I like my coffee black, just like my metal

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 22 4.21pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

It does suggest that, yes. But we should strive to make the system better. Rape is often hard to convict in a system where it's the prosecutors job to prove guilt - rather than the defendants job to prove innocence. It's often a case Of 1 Persons word against another, with a lack of physical evidence.
I wouldn't want a system where it's guilty Until proven innocent?
Perhaps we use 'Upload's solution of an 'I consent' app?

Again, It's not for us to offer a reasonable suggestion as to why evidence should be dismissed. But it should be used within proper context in a fact based conversation, where all parties can have an input.

Right, so in a case where there does happen to be very damning evidence, why does everyone sit around waiting for his version of events (which will be carefully prepared by the most expensive lawyers in the land, and no doubt designed to make it his word vs hers)?

Again, what could Mason Greenwood's version of events be that would justify his behaviour in that recording? If your daughter had recorded that, what could Greenwood say that would satisfy you that he's done nothing wrong?

To be clear, I am not advocating a system of presumed guilt or anything like that legally - I just think in cases as obvious as this, people (and men particularly) should be more willing to just call it what it is and condemn the c*nt rather than offering lawyers defences which do not hold up to any sort of common sense. I think if that happens socially, actual changes to the legal system may follow.

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 22 4.24pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

A lot of people will tell you that the system is broken when it comes to rape cases, however not that many have a practical solution within the assumption of innocent until proven guilty.

Most of the solutions are really guilty until proven innocent e.g. extra weight should be given to the victim's statement.

I wish I had a suggestion but I don't unless we do away with the presumption of innocence and i can see an argument for that however it has to be for all crimes and not just rape.

Edited by Badger11 (31 Jan 2022 3.46pm)

I agree it's incredibly difficult and I don't have a solution legally either - I just don't agree that we need to sit here pretending Greenwood may have a perfectly reasonable explanation for what is one of the most disgusting things I've ever listened to.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Online Flag Horsham 31 Jan 22 5.03pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I agree it's incredibly difficult and I don't have a solution legally either - I just don't agree that we need to sit here pretending Greenwood may have a perfectly reasonable explanation for what is one of the most disgusting things I've ever listened to.

I agree, having a daughter myself. My concern for the young lady is they will try to tarnish her, they will dig deep for dirt. MG will say she loved rough games. I sincerely hope outside pressure will not stop her pressing charges but, unfortunately, I am not holding my breath

 

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View CrazyBadger's Profile CrazyBadger Flag Ware 31 Jan 22 5.08pm Send a Private Message to CrazyBadger Add CrazyBadger as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Right, so in a case where there does happen to be very damning evidence, why does everyone sit around waiting for his version of events (which will be carefully prepared by the most expensive lawyers in the land, and no doubt designed to make it his word vs hers)?

Again, what could Mason Greenwood's version of events be that would justify his behaviour in that recording? If your daughter had recorded that, what could Greenwood say that would satisfy you that he's done nothing wrong?

To be clear, I am not advocating a system of presumed guilt or anything like that legally - I just think in cases as obvious as this, people (and men particularly) should be more willing to just call it what it is and condemn the c*nt rather than offering lawyers defences which do not hold up to any sort of common sense. I think if that happens socially, actual changes to the legal system may follow.

In this case there is physical evidence - as collected/submitted on Instagram.. the case against Greenwood looks bad but We cannot (yet) use this to presume him guilty. That's not for us to decide, regardless of how obvious it 'looks'. Furthermore, I'm unsure of the rules, but I'd hope that the 'evidence' is allowable and submittable in court now it has been all over social media.

Let the Police do their job, collect and collate any an all evidence they can, they'll have his side of the story. We do not.

I don't know what his version of event are. and If this happened to my daughter, what I wouldn't do is advocate plastering the evidence all over social media, and get the best chance of a conviction possible.

 


I like my coffee black, just like my metal

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 31 Jan 22 5.28pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

In this case there is physical evidence - as collected/submitted on Instagram.. the case against Greenwood looks bad but We cannot (yet) use this to presume him guilty. That's not for us to decide, regardless of how obvious it 'looks'. Furthermore, I'm unsure of the rules, but I'd hope that the 'evidence' is allowable and submittable in court now it has been all over social media.

Let the Police do their job, collect and collate any an all evidence they can, they'll have his side of the story. We do not.

I don't know what his version of event are. and If this happened to my daughter, what I wouldn't do is advocate plastering the evidence all over social media, and get the best chance of a conviction possible.

Exactly my point - if a court decide that evidence is not permissible, why should that affect how me and you (not the legal system) judge him? The audio is very clearly him and it's very clear what he says.

My whole point is that the threshold for society to condemn someone for something like this should be considerably lower than the threshold for a legal conviction, which are nigh on impossible to achieve.

For a third time; what version of events could Greenwood provide that would satisfy you he's done nothing wrong? You keep referring to his side of the story, but I don't see anything he can say which makes that recording ok... hypothetically, what could that look like? Was it out of context? A joke? I'll take any reasonable explanation.

Given the 1.6% figure I've already provided you, I'd suggest sitting back and letting the police get on with it is a terrible course of action for a family who have suffered something like this.

 

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