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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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Stirlingsays 07 Mar 22 8.21pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle This isn't really the point I was trying to make. I agree we should adopt the hardline sanctions, on the central bank and commercial banks, withdrawing Swift even boycotting their oil. These will impact ordinary Russians but also us. I think we must be prepared for some very tough times for a while, and that it's both necessary and that the people will tolerate it. China will buy Russia's oil and gas, and we will take what they bought from the Middle East. A new Cold War is indeed a disaster and avoiding it very desirable but not at any cost. Ridding the world of Putin is essential and postponing doing it could easily create a bigger disaster. My point was about trying to ensure Putin, and not us, gets blamed by the Russian people, as much as possible. Companies, like Apple as an example, withdrawing from the market means the people will blame them for no longer being able to buy an iPhone, whilst if they were available, but now unaffordable because of the collapse of the ruble, then Putin is more likely to be blamed. So I would keep trading (the staff are still being paid), at least for the time being and only suspend activities when commercial activities decline so much that it would look stupid to continue. Well, we don't agree that this is all about Putin. You have no idea that what replaces him is better, especially after policies that punish...that's not going to encourage those favorable to the west. I don't agree that the west should suffer anymore than we have to.....it's not landlords like you who won't be able to afford to heat their homes next winter. I want negotiation, without agendas, which incentives each side because no one wins here. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Mar 2022 8.22pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Mar 22 8.21pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

This isn't really the point I was trying to make.

I agree we should adopt the hardline sanctions, on the central bank and commercial banks, withdrawing Swift even boycotting their oil. These will impact ordinary Russians but also us. I think we must be prepared for some very tough times for a while, and that it's both necessary and that the people will tolerate it.

China will buy Russia's oil and gas, and we will take what they bought from the Middle East.

A new Cold War is indeed a disaster and avoiding it very desirable but not at any cost. Ridding the world of Putin is essential and postponing doing it could easily create a bigger disaster.

My point was about trying to ensure Putin, and not us, gets blamed by the Russian people, as much as possible.

Companies, like Apple as an example, withdrawing from the market means the people will blame them for no longer being able to buy an iPhone, whilst if they were available, but now unaffordable because of the collapse of the ruble, then Putin is more likely to be blamed.

So I would keep trading (the staff are still being paid), at least for the time being and only suspend activities when commercial activities decline so much that it would look stupid to continue.

Well, we don't agree that this is all about Putin. You have no idea that what replaces him is better, especially after policies that punish...that's not going to encourage those favorable to the west.

I don't agree that the west should suffer anymore than we have to.....it's not landlords like you who won't be able to afford to heat their homes next winter.

I want negotiation, without agendas, which incentives each side because no one wins here.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Mar 2022 8.22pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Mar 22 9.54pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Well, we don't agree that this is all about Putin. You have no idea that what replaces him is better, especially after policies that punish...that's not going to encourage those favorable to the west. I don't agree that the west should suffer anymore than we have to.....it's not landlords like you who won't be able to afford to heat their homes next winter. I want negotiation, without agendas, which incentives each side because no one wins here. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Mar 2022 8.22pm) We agree about outcomes. Our differences arise on how to achieve them. I would like to see every person in the world living securely and peacefully. Ourselves and the Russians included. Undermining the Putin regime, whilst not punishing the Russian people more than cannot be avoided, is what the sanctions are trying to do. My suggestions try to assist that. Whilst we don't know who would replace Putin if unrest grows who-ever it was would need to address that unrest positively or risk it becoming worse. How our government tries to protect the poorest among us is as yet unknown. I am a landlord only because that's where a significant part of my pension is invested and rather than just draw an income each month and sit on my backside, it keeps me active, doing repairs and gardening. I also created 3 much needed single household units. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I am 77 and a pensioner. Of course, I would like to see negotiations and an end to this but everything I hear from Putin suggests he has no intention at all of even listening to compromises. You cannot negotiate with a brick wall. Putin wants, even needs, to win. The best way out of this seems to me to play the long game and let him "win". Treat Ukraine as a battle and a tactical retreat in the new Cold War. Losing a battle is OK, so long as you win the war. We might not want a new Cold War, but that's what we have got until Putin, and his regime, is gone and proved to be gone. No-one wins until that happens. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Mar 22 9.54pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I don't agree that the west should suffer anymore than we have to.....it's not landlords like you who won't be able to afford to heat their homes next winter.

I want negotiation, without agendas, which incentives each side because no one wins here.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Mar 2022 8.22pm)

We agree about outcomes. Our differences arise on how to achieve them. I would like to see every person in the world living securely and peacefully. Ourselves and the Russians included.

Undermining the Putin regime, whilst not punishing the Russian people more than cannot be avoided, is what the sanctions are trying to do. My suggestions try to assist that.

Whilst we don't know who would replace Putin if unrest grows who-ever it was would need to address that unrest positively or risk it becoming worse.

How our government tries to protect the poorest among us is as yet unknown. I am a landlord only because that's where a significant part of my pension is invested and rather than just draw an income each month and sit on my backside, it keeps me active, doing repairs and gardening. I also created 3 much needed single household units. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I am 77 and a pensioner.

Of course, I would like to see negotiations and an end to this but everything I hear from Putin suggests he has no intention at all of even listening to compromises. You cannot negotiate with a brick wall. Putin wants, even needs, to win.

The best way out of this seems to me to play the long game and let him "win". Treat Ukraine as a battle and a tactical retreat in the new Cold War. Losing a battle is OK, so long as you win the war. We might not want a new Cold War, but that's what we have got until Putin, and his regime, is gone and proved to be gone. No-one wins until that happens.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 07 Mar 22 10.05pm
The dissident right are often being accused as being pro Putin. Most of the time this is true of a section rather than whole, usually those looking to meme and attack the left rather than seriously examine the situation. I understand why some of them do it because they in turn are attacked in the same boneheaded fashion by the left and centre who themselves are just as unserious and only interested in strawmanning them with waffle about Nazis rather than addressing their arguments. Most of the dissident right are social conservatives and look at Russia, indeed look at Eastern Europe with the envy of those who think social liberalism has gone wrong and now represents little but destruction. However, anyone who thinks that how Putin runs Russia as some kind of social conservative example just aren't actually looking. Yeah sure, they don't get trans story hour, blm marches and the insanity of guilt trips in their own country. None of the knee bending modern sickness of social liberalism lives there...they don't get their working class girls raped with their rapists treated lightly compared to those making trouble of the state handling of it persecuted. None of that means it isn't understood that Russia is a corrupt security state, where freedom of speech and dissent are met with persecution and sometimes murder. I've always maintained that how we got here hasn't been addressed by our media because all they want the public to focus upon has been 'evil and mad Putin'. I state that this is a deliberate summary that once again lies about the realities of the wider picture because they don't want anyone dividing blame, they want the same totally manipulated response that Putin gets in Russia. At the end of the post will be a link to a discussion on the dissident right which involves someone in Russia, which if we take him at his word, has lived in and has links in Russia and has lots of interesting feedback relating to the power structure there and Putin's Russia, plus a far more balanced view of how we got here. There are some clipping issues at some points with the stream but for those interested in hearing it stick with it because it doesn't show Russia as a positive vision for European social conservativism. For the dissident right I think that's more likely to be found in other areas of Eastern Europe like Hungary/Poland and parts of America. [Link] Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Mar 2022 1.30am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Mar 22 10.05pm

The dissident right are often being accused as being pro Putin. Most of the time this is true of a section rather than whole, usually those looking to meme and attack the left rather than seriously examine the situation.

I understand why some of them do it because they in turn are attacked in the same boneheaded fashion by the left and centre who themselves are just as unserious and only interested in strawmanning them with waffle about Nazis rather than addressing their arguments.

Most of the dissident right are social conservatives and look at Russia, indeed look at Eastern Europe with the envy of those who think social liberalism has gone wrong and now represents little but destruction.

However, anyone who thinks that how Putin runs Russia as some kind of social conservative example just aren't actually looking.

Yeah sure, they don't get trans story hour, blm marches and the insanity of guilt trips in their own country. None of the knee bending modern sickness of social liberalism lives there...they don't get their working class girls raped with their rapists treated lightly compared to those making trouble of the state handling of it persecuted. None of that means it isn't understood that Russia is a corrupt security state, where freedom of speech and dissent are met with persecution and sometimes murder.

I've always maintained that how we got here hasn't been addressed by our media because all they want the public to focus upon has been 'evil and mad Putin'. I state that this is a deliberate summary that once again lies about the realities of the wider picture because they don't want anyone dividing blame, they want the same totally manipulated response that Putin gets in Russia.

At the end of the post will be a link to a discussion on the dissident right which involves someone in Russia, which if we take him at his word, has lived in and has links in Russia and has lots of interesting feedback relating to the power structure there and Putin's Russia, plus a far more balanced view of how we got here.

There are some clipping issues at some points with the stream but for those interested in hearing it stick with it because it doesn't show Russia as a positive vision for European social conservativism.

For the dissident right I think that's more likely to be found in other areas of Eastern Europe like Hungary/Poland and parts of America.

[Link]

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Mar 2022 1.30am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steeleye20 Croydon 07 Mar 22 10.06pm
It's more difficult to know what is going on in the Ukraine now that we have banned RT and Russia has in turn banned BBC News and others. I am still catching RT online and it really is chalk and cheese now their coverage is mostly about East Ukraine Donbass whereas here it barely gets a mention. Streams of Russian lorries carrying humanitarian aid are not likely to appear on our screens, RT does show some people telling them to 'eff off but others welcoming them. We would be better off not banning things we are supposedly a free society able to think for ourselves.
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steeleye20

Croydon 07 Mar 22 10.06pm

It's more difficult to know what is going on in the Ukraine now that we have banned RT and Russia has in turn banned BBC News and others.

I am still catching RT online and it really is chalk and cheese now their coverage is mostly about East Ukraine Donbass whereas here it barely gets a mention.

Streams of Russian lorries carrying humanitarian aid are not likely to appear on our screens, RT does show some people telling them to 'eff off but others welcoming them.

We would be better off not banning things we are supposedly a free society able to think for ourselves.

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Stirlingsays 07 Mar 22 10.24pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle We agree about outcomes. Our differences arise on how to achieve them. I would like to see every person in the world living securely and peacefully. Ourselves and the Russians included. Undermining the Putin regime, whilst not punishing the Russian people more than cannot be avoided, is what the sanctions are trying to do. My suggestions try to assist that. Whilst we don't know who would replace Putin if unrest grows who-ever it was would need to address that unrest positively or risk it becoming worse. How our government tries to protect the poorest among us is as yet unknown. I am a landlord only because that's where a significant part of my pension is invested and rather than just draw an income each month and sit on my backside, it keeps me active, doing repairs and gardening. I also created 3 much needed single household units. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I am 77 and a pensioner. Of course, I would like to see negotiations and an end to this but everything I hear from Putin suggests he has no intention at all of even listening to compromises. You cannot negotiate with a brick wall. Putin wants, even needs, to win. The best way out of this seems to me to play the long game and let him "win". Treat Ukraine as a battle and a tactical retreat in the new Cold War. Losing a battle is OK, so long as you win the war. We might not want a new Cold War, but that's what we have got until Putin, and his regime, is gone and proved to be gone. No-one wins until that happens. I think we are probably a lot closer on this than I realised. I think in the short term.....while the more I find out about the Zelensky government the less I like....they are the invaded and the west rightly is doing what it...realistically... can to support the innocent here. It's a good thing that Putin is finding this costly militarily and economically because it decentivises him....but it should be sensible. Realistically we have to give him an 'out' that doesn't load the dice and give the impression of a loss because even though he has committed a war crime the outcome of ending this war should be the first priority for everyone involved. From the discussion I've just listened to it doesn't look like elitist opposition to Putin in Russia is anything like realistic....he essentially eliminated it all. We are in a very dangerous time for mankind and it dwarfs everything else. I think if reason prevails then we might get through this....but whatever happens we have all lost to some degree if the outcome is cold war 2. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Mar 2022 10.44pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Mar 22 10.24pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

We agree about outcomes. Our differences arise on how to achieve them. I would like to see every person in the world living securely and peacefully. Ourselves and the Russians included.

Undermining the Putin regime, whilst not punishing the Russian people more than cannot be avoided, is what the sanctions are trying to do. My suggestions try to assist that.

Whilst we don't know who would replace Putin if unrest grows who-ever it was would need to address that unrest positively or risk it becoming worse.

I think we are probably a lot closer on this than I realised.

I think in the short term.....while the more I find out about the Zelensky government the less I like....they are the invaded and the west rightly is doing what it...realistically... can to support the innocent here. It's a good thing that Putin is finding this costly militarily and economically because it decentivises him....but it should be sensible.

Realistically we have to give him an 'out' that doesn't load the dice and give the impression of a loss because even though he has committed a war crime the outcome of ending this war should be the first priority for everyone involved. From the discussion I've just listened to it doesn't look like elitist opposition to Putin in Russia is anything like realistic....he essentially eliminated it all.

We are in a very dangerous time for mankind and it dwarfs everything else. I think if reason prevails then we might get through this....but whatever happens we have all lost to some degree if the outcome is cold war 2.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Mar 2022 10.44pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Grumbles 07 Mar 22 10.33pm
Originally posted by Palace Old Geezer Zelinskiy is addressing the Commons tomorrow via video link in case you're interested. for some it will be faked.
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Grumbles 07 Mar 22 10.33pm

Originally posted by Palace Old Geezer

Zelinskiy is addressing the Commons tomorrow via video link in case you're interested.

for some it will be faked.

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HKOwen Hong Kong 07 Mar 22 11.15pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 It's more difficult to know what is going on in the Ukraine now that we have banned RT and Russia has in turn banned BBC News and others. I am still catching RT online and it really is chalk and cheese now their coverage is mostly about East Ukraine Donbass whereas here it barely gets a mention. Streams of Russian lorries carrying humanitarian aid are not likely to appear on our screens, RT does show some people telling them to 'eff off but others welcoming them. We would be better off not banning things we are supposedly a free society able to think for ourselves. You must have been outraged when Corbyn was criticised for refusing to condemn Russia ,when they were wrongly accused of being responsible for murdering in Salisbury when clearly it was all about the spire. Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.
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HKOwen

Hong Kong 07 Mar 22 11.15pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

It's more difficult to know what is going on in the Ukraine now that we have banned RT and Russia has in turn banned BBC News and others.

I am still catching RT online and it really is chalk and cheese now their coverage is mostly about East Ukraine Donbass whereas here it barely gets a mention.

Streams of Russian lorries carrying humanitarian aid are not likely to appear on our screens, RT does show some people telling them to 'eff off but others welcoming them.

We would be better off not banning things we are supposedly a free society able to think for ourselves.

You must have been outraged when Corbyn was criticised for refusing to condemn Russia ,when they were wrongly accused of being responsible for murdering in Salisbury when clearly it was all about the spire.

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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BlueJay UK 08 Mar 22 1.56am
Russia's terminally ill children line up in letter 'Z' symbol to show Kremlin support - [Link]
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BlueJay

UK 08 Mar 22 1.56am

Russia's terminally ill children line up in letter 'Z' symbol to show Kremlin support - [Link]

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 08 Mar 22 4.55am
Originally posted by BlueJay Russia's terminally ill children line up in letter 'Z' symbol to show Kremlin support - [Link] How sick in the f-cking head do you have to be to pull a stunt like that ? Obviously Putin has no boundaries, and for that we must be prepared. Latest is, he threatens to cut world gas supplies. This is going to get a whole lot worse "The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 08 Mar 22 4.55am

Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly

Originally posted by BlueJay

Russia's terminally ill children line up in letter 'Z' symbol to show Kremlin support - [Link]

How sick in the f-cking head do you have to be to pull a stunt like that ? Obviously Putin has no boundaries, and for that we must be prepared.

Latest is, he threatens to cut world gas supplies. This is going to get a whole lot worse

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 08 Mar 22 8.06am
Originally posted by BlueJay Russia's terminally ill children line up in letter 'Z' symbol to show Kremlin support - [Link] Ah, the battle for the moral high ground rages on! Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!
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Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 08 Mar 22 8.06am

Originally posted by BlueJay

Russia's terminally ill children line up in letter 'Z' symbol to show Kremlin support - [Link]

Ah, the battle for the moral high ground rages on!

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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Stirlingsays 08 Mar 22 9.33am
Originally posted by Nicholas91 Ah, the battle for the moral high ground rages on! You can see for miles and miles when you're up there. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

08 Mar 22 9.33am

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Ah, the battle for the moral high ground rages on!

You can see for miles and miles when you're up there.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 08 Mar 22 10.14am
It's always unfortunate when children or those who can't understand an issue are used to make some political point. We all know why it's done because parents or schools see them as extensions of themselves and that's right....but they don't understand so it's always a bit silly to anyone rational. Then again, they are told what to think and in many ways that doesn't change for their older versions either. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Mar 2022 10.16am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

08 Mar 22 10.14am

It's always unfortunate when children or those who can't understand an issue are used to make some political point. We all know why it's done because parents or schools see them as extensions of themselves and that's right....but they don't understand so it's always a bit silly to anyone rational.

Then again, they are told what to think and in many ways that doesn't change for their older versions either.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Mar 2022 10.16am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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