Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 Stirlingsays  15 Mar 22 12.05pm |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
That's clearly a big unknown. It implies that nations just want what is fair or reasonable. Ukraine was clearly in Russia's plans. It's a dynamic that existed way beyond recent decades, or even our lifetimes. Putin's fine with it being a bombed out shell, as long as it's a Russian bombed out shell. No agreement that involved Ukraine having a different character and approach, either culturally, politically, or economically detached from Russia was going to be acceptable long term. The battered wife outlook that if we'd somehow behaved differently it wouldn't have happened, may have provided a temporary pause, but long term I doubt the outcome would've been different. I don't subscribe to that point of view. I lived through these events and remember the nineties. I remember how Putin started. This 'good and evil' line isn't the real world. What we have had were very bad decisions taken by corrupt and hubric leaders over decades which led here.....and now a line of waffle justifying them. Putin started this war and the blame for that is clear, however the path for this war was laid by others....who seem to think that geo political politics lives in the clouds with the hippies. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2022 12.05pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 15 Mar 22 12.10pm |
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I keep hearing this line that the Ukraine gave up nukes. Firstly those were soviet nukes housed in the Ukraine, so the argument that they were Ukrainian is far fetched. Secondly they had no control of those nukes as they were in systems controlled in Russia. They would have had to deconstruct the soviet systems, which considering they weren't on bad terms with Russia wasn't a realistic reality.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 15 Mar 22 12.19pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
and I don't call them scum either. Even the poster admitted it was in poor taste - strange post to jump on.
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| Stirlingsays 15 Mar 22 12.23pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
and I don't call them scum either. Even the poster admitted it was in poor taste - strange post to jump on. Personally, I don't consider the invading of my national borders as an issue where the sympathy should only be with those who have crossed multiple borders to be involved in illegal crossings. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2022 12.24pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 15 Mar 22 12.29pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Personally, I don't consider the invading of my national borders as an issue where the sympathy should only be with those who have crossed multiple borders to be involved in illegal crossings. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2022 12.24pm) I'm not sure the hardship (and I use that word very loosely) of having some increased immigration into the country particularly stacks up against some of the real atrocities going on in the world, assuming that was your point.
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| Stirlingsays 15 Mar 22 12.35pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I'm not sure the hardship (and I use that word very loosely) of having some increased immigration into the country particularly stacks up against some of the real atrocities going on in the world, assuming that was your point. I live in a country that has already given away regions to those with more attachment to foreign identities than British/European ones. This wasn't done with public support nor consent. While I have sympathy with the many 'atrocities going on in the world', that doesn't not extend to the giving away of this nation to anyone who turns up illegally. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2022 12.36pm)
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 15 Mar 22 12.42pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I live in a country that has already given away regions to those with more attachment to foreign identities than British/European ones. This wasn't done with public support nor consent. While I have sympathy with the many 'atrocities going on in the world', that doesn't not extend to the giving away of this nation to anyone who turns up illegally. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2022 12.36pm) Woe is you.
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| Stirlingsays 15 Mar 22 12.48pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Woe is you. Yes, I've been in mourning for some years now. However, at least it wasn't my politics that was responsible for the consequences of these decisions. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Mar 2022 12.48pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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BlueJay  UK 15 Mar 22 1.44pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I don't subscribe to that point of view. I lived through these events and remember the nineties. I remember how Putin started. It's such a shame that nobody else was alive at the time and nothing documented. Thank goodness our record of the time is maintained in such an unbiased manner within you. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
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| BlueJay UK 15 Mar 22 1.52pm |
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"The prime ministers of Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovenia are travelling to Kyiv for talks with President Volodymyr Zelensk" Let's hope there are so stray missiles in Kyiv today.
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| Grumbles 15 Mar 22 1.54pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I keep hearing this line that the Ukraine gave up nukes. Firstly those were soviet nukes housed in the Ukraine, so the argument that they were Ukrainian is far fetched. Secondly they had no control of those nukes as they were in systems controlled in Russia. They would have had to deconstruct the soviet systems, which considering they weren't on bad terms with Russia wasn't a realistic reality. That's not quite correct. Ukraine solely owned the nuclear weapons on its soil at the breakup of the CIS. At that point they theoretically had possession of 30% of CIS weapons. However to use the strategic ballistic missiles it would have required a total new strategic control structure; which Ukraine could not afford. Russia could not launch them. The silo's were positioned incorrectly for a strike on anyone but the US or Eastern Russia, the cruise missiles were “made non-operational” by the Russians prior to leaving them on Ukrainian soil. On the political side, it was a likely if Ukraine kept the nuclear weapons they would have been at least shunned by both sides. So instead they decided to get rid of them for “compensation” and protection assurances from all sides under the Budapest Memorandum. Nowadays several nationalist parties want them back [for some resason].
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| Stirlingsays 15 Mar 22 1.55pm |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
It's such a shame that nobody else was alive at the time and nothing documented. Thank goodness our record of the time is maintained in such an unbiased manner within you. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
How you choose to interpret how the various actors behaved in relation to their words is for you.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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