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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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View Eaglehamster's Profile Eaglehamster Flag Storrington 24 Feb 23 10.43pm Send a Private Message to Eaglehamster Add Eaglehamster as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Or another way of saying it is farm out their security to the US nuclear pack.

NATO was meant for western powers, its remit has been significantly extended.....In my view putting NATO into border countries is expansionist and nuts....but hey, there you go.

Russia itself could have joined Nato twenty years ago, Putin was open to the idea.

This is a long and complicated story.....and Putin himself is critical of the USSR in eastern Europe.

Anyway I'm not going to get drawn into all this again.....People have decided where they stand in all this and god knows I've said where I stand.

I'll just comment on the battlefield stuff occasionally.

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Feb 2023 5.06pm)

It appears you like to equalise blame.

"Russians are brutal - so are the Ukrainians" - but the who are the invaders? Who is killing civilians?

"NATO - Just as bad as Russia." Well look at who most countries want to pal up to. Sure Russia has pals, N Korea, China (sometimes) Belareus and Syria.

Putin has been absolute leader for 22 years. Funny how time makes despots go crazy in believing in their omnipotence.

I'm not a fan of the US, you could write a huge book about their crimes I know. That doesn't lessen the history of Russia's brutalisation of it's own people and those it ruled.

It also it doesn't change who is wrong in this conflict.

 


I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything.

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View Tim Gypsy Hill '64's Profile Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Flag Stoke sub normal 24 Feb 23 11.48pm Send a Private Message to Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Add Tim Gypsy Hill '64 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Analysis from Unherd:

'One recent Ipsos survey shows a downward trend in support for sending weapons and/or air-defence systems to Ukraine in Europe, with German support falling below half for the first time (down by seven percentage points to 48% between March-April 2022 and November-December 2022) and the Netherlands (down by six percentage points to 59%).

More surprising, though, is that even among Ukraine’s loudest supporters there appears to be some degree of war-weariness: in the same Ipsos survey, there was a 10-percentage point decline among Poles supporting the most stringent economic sanctions against Russia and an 11-percentage point decline in accepting Ukrainian refugees.

According to one January Forsa poll, an astonishing 80% of Germans said that it was more important to end the conflict quickly with negotiations than for Ukraine to win. Similarly, a survey of nine EU countries by Euroskopia found that over 60% of Austrians and Germans want the war to end quickly whereas the Dutch, Portuguese and Polish are strongly opposed to this idea.

War fatigue thus appears to be setting in faster in Germany than in any other country, with public opinion hardening in recent months. Almost half of Germans (43%) now agree that ‘the problems of Ukraine are none of our business, and we should not interfere’, marking an 11-percentage point increase from March-April 2022 to November-December 2022. This may go some way towards explaining the rise of Sahra Wagenknecht, one of the co-leaders of Die Linke, who is, with some success, spearheading an anti-war movement in Germany.

Western leaders displayed remarkable levels of unity during the first year of the war. One year in, however, and their voters are beginning to be more hesitant in their commitment.'

The original article contains links to all its polls but I removed them to reduce to the length of the post.

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Feb 2023 1.52am)

"Give us gas.".

This is a joke, please don't be offended.

Edited by Tim Gypsy Hill '64 (24 Feb 2023 11.55pm)

 


Systematically dragged down by the lawmakers

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 24 Feb 23 11.58pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


We can't give away parts of Ukraine. It's not ours to give. The Ukranians will fight until they are incapable. If we do not support them, what does that say to Poland and all the other former Soviet countries? What does it say about Europe's security?

I agree. This idea that there was a surefire way to negotiate a fair way out of this flies in the face of Putins actions and perspective. All laying down arms would've achieved is the death of Ukranians and their identity.

It's very easy to pick fault with fighting against said aggression because it's not as is any outcome in major conflict has a positive outcome. There are no winners in this situation, but I concur that creating red lines where we stand firm at least gives hope to those countries who would inevitably be next on Putins hitlist. It would be naive to imagine that turning a blind eye wouldn't embolden.


Edited by footythoughts (25 Feb 2023 12.00am)

 

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View Tim Gypsy Hill '64's Profile Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Flag Stoke sub normal 25 Feb 23 12.27am Send a Private Message to Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Add Tim Gypsy Hill '64 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have no interest in pulling apart all the views of someone whose central plank from the outset has been the appeasement of a brutal dictator.

You seem to see all of this solely in economic terms, yet in other threads you will happily bang on about Brexit being about much more than that.

What will emerge from this war is a lasting restraint of Putin's desire to reoccupy the former USSR countries. You don't think that is worth the cost. Other's disagree.

How and when it ends is unknown but inevitably will be some kind of fudged compromise in which each side can claim a victory. Who is leading both sides when that happens is also an unknown.

To compare this situation, in any way, with lockdowns is risible. As is to suggest my support for them was based on a lack of concern for other people's money, when the truth is it was a concern for other people's lives.

I too saw the estimate that the Russian economy had only taken a 2% hit. Putin made the claim in his speech on Tuesday. If it is as accurate as his other claims then anyone who believes it is a fool. What's true is the Russian economy has been bolstered by the increased value of gas and oil, but those windfall profits are ending and Putin has fractured trust, which won't easily be repaired. Other analyses suggest that the cracks are only now beginning to show and it's this year, rather than last, when the real impact of sanctions will bite and dissent will increase. Add to that the impact of body bags returning home, which is seen in Russia but not the west, and their future isn't all sunshine and roses.

We aren't fighting a war. We are helping a sovereign nation defend itself. Not only because it is morally right to do so but because, ultimately, it's also in our own interests.

The west has no interest at all in occupying an inch of Russian territory, or in determining how they govern themselves. They might encourage democratic thought and offer encouragement to those Russians who aspire to it, but direct action, never. I wish the west would find ways of ensuring that message reaches the ears of the Russian people by it being said in speeches which could not easily be censored by Russian media. We need to overcome the way the people there are indoctrinated.

Is Trump in jail yet?

 


Systematically dragged down by the lawmakers

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 25 Feb 23 5.20am Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

So china getting involved in Peace Talks. Will handing over Ukraine and Taiwan form part of any settlement.

 


"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 25 Feb 23 5.40am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by YT

Your resolve of 5:04pm didn't last long

Well, it's not that I won't comment it's that I can't be bothered going on long detailed breakdowns of why I think what we are feed is a pack of one eyed lies.

In a sense the battlefield stuff is more truthful as who holds what ground is physical reality rather than someone's perspective.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 25 Feb 23 5.45am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglehamster

It appears you like to equalise blame.

"Russians are brutal - so are the Ukrainians" - but the who are the invaders? Who is killing civilians?

"NATO - Just as bad as Russia." Well look at who most countries want to pal up to. Sure Russia has pals, N Korea, China (sometimes) Belareus and Syria.

Putin has been absolute leader for 22 years. Funny how time makes despots go crazy in believing in their omnipotence.

I'm not a fan of the US, you could write a huge book about their crimes I know. That doesn't lessen the history of Russia's brutalisation of it's own people and those it ruled.

It also it doesn't change who is wrong in this conflict.

Your view of Putin seems to be what the mainstream have thrown at you.

I've looked at both perspectives on this war on where the blame lies and I've written extensively on it in the thread.

I really don't want to be drawn into repeating all that, if you are interested in why I see it differently just reread the thread.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 25 Feb 23 5.48am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have no interest in pulling apart all the views of someone whose central plank from the outset has been the appeasement of a brutal dictator.

I read this first sentence and then stopped reading and just deleted the rest as I can't be bothered with your nonsense.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Eaglehamster's Profile Eaglehamster Flag Storrington 25 Feb 23 7.09am Send a Private Message to Eaglehamster Add Eaglehamster as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I read this first sentence and then stopped reading and just deleted the rest as I can't be bothered with your nonsense.

It was a very reasonable post. It would seem you're resorting to abuse and deflection to defend your hopeless argument.

As for sifting through nearly 400 posts to understand your view, you overestimate its significance.

 


I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 25 Feb 23 9.05am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglehamster

It was a very reasonable post. It would seem you're resorting to abuse and deflection to defend your hopeless argument.

As for sifting through nearly 400 posts to understand your view, you overestimate its significance.

Abuse? Wow, hyperbolic much?

Hopeless argument? My position is held by many academics and policy specialists in the area over the last 15 years....Farage holds it, Orban holds it.....but yeah ok, whatever.

Cool, don't bother reading back. However that at least informs you why I can't be bothered to continually make the same points to different posters who raise the same media presented perspectives.

We will see whose position ends up being the end result in this war....remember me then Eagle, because I wasn't the one lying to you.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Feb 2023 9.10am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 25 Feb 23 10.54am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglehamster

It was a very reasonable post. It would seem you're resorting to abuse and deflection to defend your hopeless argument.

As for sifting through nearly 400 posts to understand your view, you overestimate its significance.

He never accepts that he does this, even when it's blatantly obvious that it's his standard bolthole when cornered.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 25 Feb 23 11.01am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Abuse? Wow, hyperbolic much?

Hopeless argument? My position is held by many academics and policy specialists in the area over the last 15 years....Farage holds it, Orban holds it.....but yeah ok, whatever.

Cool, don't bother reading back. However that at least informs you why I can't be bothered to continually make the same points to different posters who raise the same media presented perspectives.

We will see whose position ends up being the end result in this war....remember me then Eagle, because I wasn't the one lying to you.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Feb 2023 9.10am)

Academics and policy specialists? Farage and Orban?

Says it all really.

Add them to the basement boys making videos from a hard right perspective, stir (pun intended) for a while, and it's no wonder this distorted vision is seen.

Specsavers do Saturday appointments. Help is at hand.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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