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View berlinpalace's Profile berlinpalace Flag berlin 31 Mar 23 11.09am Send a Private Message to berlinpalace Add berlinpalace as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Just tell me this. Do you believe that there are
more than two sexes?

I personally don't care what someone wants to call themselves, but don't expect me to believe it simply because they say it's so. That would be illogical.

Gender always used to mean sex as far as I'm aware, and just because the dictionary definition is all PC, doesn't make it so.

Words and meanings get in the dictionary these days if enough people use them, correctly or incorrectly.

Hi Hrolf, you’re confused, I know it’s not easy when people keep using these terms interchangeably and expect you to keep up with modern usage. Here’s a very short video from Encyclopaedia Britannica that I hope will clarify things to your satisfaction.
[Link]

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 31 Mar 23 12.10pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace

Hi Hrolf, you’re confused, I know it’s not easy when people keep using these terms interchangeably and expect you to keep up with modern usage. Here’s a very short video from Encyclopaedia Britannica that I hope will clarify things to your satisfaction.
[Link]

I watched the video and it pretty much reflects what my primitive understanding already was.

Where I have issue however is when individuals people want to mutilate their internal and external bodies to change their physical state and be recognised as to a sex which they are not, with all society then apparently having to accept this and adopt a differing reality. Sport is the biggest one for me, sexes are segregated primarily due to their physical differences not on individual's subjective opinions of themselves. Prisons equally too. A lot of efforts these days seem concentrated on removing any other opinion or factual commentary on the physical difference between the male and female sex, claiming that everything is just a matter of freedom to select whichever option you want and order society based on that, a ludicrous if not impossible task.

Furthermore, as with the introduction of 2.3 billion different genders, is this not just an exercise in sheer narcissism whereby individuals want to make their own identification of themselves the centre of all things - mainstream talking points, seemingly academic debate for discussion and an excuse to showcase themselves in whatever media, march, demonstration, act of hysteria they wish to? It also opens the door for people exploring endless avenues as to why they encounter certain problems in life such as failure, social isolation/exclusion, bullying, lack of attention, poverty etc which often distract from the issue at hand? Would explain the shocking suicide rate amongst other statistics.

The individualistic nature of people in being remarkably diverse in our personalities, interests, behaviour etc etc should not be anything necessary to think about let alone debate on end. The removal of barriers or suffering for individuals deriving from these characteristics should be focused upon IMHO and not approached as we see these days where sex and personality are conflated, promoted as the root of all things diverting attention away from where it should be directed and applied in a manner which creates a whole new systemic loophole to be exploited, often affecting the most vulnerable in society.

It just opens a gateway for grown human beings to perpetually act like teenagers hence the staggering amount of self-indulgence, hysteria, overt displays of emotion we see so endemic these days. It is also too impactful upon the fabric of society to be treated and pursued in such a revolutionary and dogmatic, logic-less way.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 31 Mar 23 3.21pm Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace

Hi Hrolf, you’re confused, I know it’s not easy when people keep using these terms interchangeably and expect you to keep up with modern usage. Here’s a very short video from Encyclopaedia Britannica that I hope will clarify things to your satisfaction.
[Link]

I too watched this video. It makes it clear there is a substantial difference between sex and gender according to the definitions. On this basis why is it that the gender appears to take precedence over the sex part of it when it comes to use of toilets and changing rooms. Whilst it may not bother those who consider themselves to be a woman walking around with meat and two veg hanging out, biological females will in the main feel pretty disgusted especially if children are present. Clearly, segregation by sex makes more sense.

Another point is why doesn’t sport simply segregate by sex rather than gender in which case it would stop arguments about blokes winning all their competitions.

 

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View berlinpalace's Profile berlinpalace Flag berlin 31 Mar 23 4.16pm Send a Private Message to berlinpalace Add berlinpalace as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

I watched the video and it pretty much reflects what my primitive understanding already was.

Where I have issue however is when individuals people want to mutilate their internal and external bodies to change their physical state and be recognised as to a sex which they are not, with all society then apparently having to accept this and adopt a differing reality. Sport is the biggest one for me, sexes are segregated primarily due to their physical differences not on individual's subjective opinions of themselves. Prisons equally too. A lot of efforts these days seem concentrated on removing any other opinion or factual commentary on the physical difference between the male and female sex, claiming that everything is just a matter of freedom to select whichever option you want and order society based on that, a ludicrous if not impossible task.

Furthermore, as with the introduction of 2.3 billion different genders, is this not just an exercise in sheer narcissism whereby individuals want to make their own identification of themselves the centre of all things - mainstream talking points, seemingly academic debate for discussion and an excuse to showcase themselves in whatever media, march, demonstration, act of hysteria they wish to? It also opens the door for people exploring endless avenues as to why they encounter certain problems in life such as failure, social isolation/exclusion, bullying, lack of attention, poverty etc which often distract from the issue at hand? Would explain the shocking suicide rate amongst other statistics.

The individualistic nature of people in being remarkably diverse in our personalities, interests, behaviour etc etc should not be anything necessary to think about let alone debate on end. The removal of barriers or suffering for individuals deriving from these characteristics should be focused upon IMHO and not approached as we see these days where sex and personality are conflated, promoted as the root of all things diverting attention away from where it should be directed and applied in a manner which creates a whole new systemic loophole to be exploited, often affecting the most vulnerable in society.

It just opens a gateway for grown human beings to perpetually act like teenagers hence the staggering amount of self-indulgence, hysteria, overt displays of emotion we see so endemic these days. It is also too impactful upon the fabric of society to be treated and pursued in such a revolutionary and dogmatic, logic-less way.


First I would say that no-one is undergoing years of hormone replacement therapy and multiple surgical treatments on a whim. This follows lengthy consultations with psychologists and doctors. I don’t think either of us really understand how much these people feel that they’re just in the wrong body. The last survey I read about said that the overwhelming majority of these people were a lot more comfortable about their place in society following the surgery. So it seems like it works.
Second, how do we then accommodate those that are going through hrt or haven’t started it yet? I know it would probably be a lot easier if we didn’t have lots of recent examples of people in positions of authority who turned out to be rapists or pedos. There’s a lot of mistrust out there.
We’re pretty much the first generation that’s had to deal with this and it does feel like we’re winging it at the moment.

 

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View berlinpalace's Profile berlinpalace Flag berlin 31 Mar 23 4.22pm Send a Private Message to berlinpalace Add berlinpalace as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

I too watched this video. It makes it clear there is a substantial difference between sex and gender according to the definitions. On this basis why is it that the gender appears to take precedence over the sex part of it when it comes to use of toilets and changing rooms. Whilst it may not bother those who consider themselves to be a woman walking around with meat and two veg hanging out, biological females will in the main feel pretty disgusted especially if children are present. Clearly, segregation by sex makes more sense.

Another point is why doesn’t sport simply segregate by sex rather than gender in which case it would stop arguments about blokes winning all their competitions.


Maybe more of those unisex individual toilets?
As for sports, I’d leave it up to the individual sports authorities to decide, they know their own sport best, you’d hope, and they get the best scientific and ethical advice. Obviously, there are some sports where body mass makes a difference and others where it doesn’t so much. Maybe transgender people should all take up darts?

 

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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 31 Mar 23 4.39pm Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace


Maybe more of those unisex individual toilets?
As for sports, I’d leave it up to the individual sports authorities to decide, they know their own sport best, you’d hope, and they get the best scientific and ethical advice. Obviously, there are some sports where body mass makes a difference and others where it doesn’t so much. Maybe transgender people should all take up darts?

Hmm, ‘best scientific and ethical advice’ doesn’t necessarily benefit the majority, as these decisions are mostly made by those placed under pressure not to be vilified by the affected minority. Nor do these decisions tend to be dealt with utilising common sense.

As I said, sex should be the basis of segregation not what someone thinks or identifies as.

 

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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 31 Mar 23 4.46pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace

First I would say that no-one is undergoing years of hormone replacement therapy and multiple surgical treatments on a whim. This follows lengthy consultations with psychologists and doctors. I don’t think either of us really understand how much these people feel that they’re just in the wrong body. The last survey I read about said that the overwhelming majority of these people were a lot more comfortable about their place in society following the surgery. So it seems like it works.
Second, how do we then accommodate those that are going through hrt or haven’t started it yet? I know it would probably be a lot easier if we didn’t have lots of recent examples of people in positions of authority who turned out to be rapists or pedos. There’s a lot of mistrust out there.
We’re pretty much the first generation that’s had to deal with this and it does feel like we’re winging it at the moment.

Someone might feel they should be in a pirate's body and identify as Long John Silver, but I doubt they would cut a leg off, poke an eye out and put a parrot on their shoulder.

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 31 Mar 23 5.25pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace


First I would say that no-one is undergoing years of hormone replacement therapy and multiple surgical treatments on a whim. This follows lengthy consultations with psychologists and doctors. I don’t think either of us really understand how much these people feel that they’re just in the wrong body. The last survey I read about said that the overwhelming majority of these people were a lot more comfortable about their place in society following the surgery. So it seems like it works.
Second, how do we then accommodate those that are going through hrt or haven’t started it yet? I know it would probably be a lot easier if we didn’t have lots of recent examples of people in positions of authority who turned out to be rapists or pedos. There’s a lot of mistrust out there.
We’re pretty much the first generation that’s had to deal with this and it does feel like we’re winging it at the moment.

So firstly I would suggest that I neither described a physical change as a ‘whim’ however secondly there are plenty of examples where those who have undergone such catastrophic actions have either ‘transitioned’ back or in some cases even taken their own lives if not just been left wanting to. There’s also a push for this to be done to younger and younger individuals which is barbarically cruel IMO. As for those wishing to undergo HRT or currently undergoing it the first step might be to stop the practice where possible with immediate effect. The other issue here however is that individuals might claim it is their right to do so if available. I don’t know the answer there with only subjective opinion but if so it should be very strictly regulated, not accessible for anyone under the age of 18 but most importantly should not allow a person to be categorised as female or male on the basis of surgery or hormone replacements. They would be their sex just with the body modification and that distinction should be noted everywhere appropriate. The likes of HRT treatment are not a perfect science.

Secondly, whilst my instinctive reaction is to vilify and shout down a lot within this spectrum my logical brain tells me there is something probably of value and truth behind it albeit probably for a very small proportion. My primary issue here is the lack of consensus and therefore clarity around the difference between sex and gender, the promulgation of ‘transgenderism’ as though it is of concern to the majority, the ideological drivers behind it and the prioritisation of this over general common sense and welfare for primarily women and children.

If, for instance, a male wants to identify as a very feminine male, with body modifications too including those that make him look like a female, I think that’s none of mine or anybody else’s business beyond where matters of sex come into consideration. If he receives extreme backlash, discrimination etc for this then yes interventions and actions may need to be taken to prevent or mitigate that for his safety. If he feels uncomfortable in a ‘Men’s’ toilet or similar, he should have a safe space but not one segregated for the exclusive use of females. Where we all have to pretend that he is a female however I disagree strongly. He is not. He is a male who chooses to act and look like a female, he should be free to live his life, so long as it doesn’t infringe upon the freedom of others, as we all should be. Where there is mass promotion and policy for the butchering and complete disregard of the English language, a corporate approach to flying different flags, holding marches and designating periods of the years to certain groups, litigation for non-adherence to ideology and subjective desires, I think we have to look at society and say this is all nonsense and quite worrying.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 31 Mar 23 7.03pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace


First I would say that no-one is undergoing years of hormone replacement therapy and multiple surgical treatments on a whim. This follows lengthy consultations with psychologists and doctors. I don’t think either of us really understand how much these people feel that they’re just in the wrong body. The last survey I read about said that the overwhelming majority of these people were a lot more comfortable about their place in society following the surgery. So it seems like it works.
Second, how do we then accommodate those that are going through hrt or haven’t started it yet? I know it would probably be a lot easier if we didn’t have lots of recent examples of people in positions of authority who turned out to be rapists or pedos. There’s a lot of mistrust out there.
We’re pretty much the first generation that’s had to deal with this and it does feel like we’re winging it at the moment.

AND up to 60% regret it within 15 years and up to 25% top themselves because of the regret. ( rough figures) Imo these people do need to try to be talked out of it but that is now frowned upon for some strange reason. Bodies are really the sum of your desire but hey who cares; it’s not you !

 

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View berlinpalace's Profile berlinpalace Flag berlin 01 Apr 23 8.32am Send a Private Message to berlinpalace Add berlinpalace as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

AND up to 60% regret it within 15 years and up to 25% top themselves because of the regret. ( rough figures) Imo these people do need to try to be talked out of it but that is now frowned upon for some strange reason. Bodies are really the sum of your desire but hey who cares; it’s not you !


So you took one article from the Heritage Foundation and think that proves something? They’re a right wing think tank funded by the Koch Foundation and heavily into climate change denial, so clearly have an agenda.
The conclusion of the report they cherry picked their data from states:
“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.‘
This was a study of just over 300 people starting in 1972 up to 2003. As you can clearly read from the conclusion surgery is not enough and continuing psychiatric care is also necessary, it suggests that this care was not provided over the period of the study. More recent studies show a different outcome, I suspect psychiatric care has moved on a bit since this study. Maybe you could move on too?

 

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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 01 Apr 23 9.33am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace

So you took one article from the Heritage Foundation and think that proves something? They’re a right wing think tank funded by the Koch Foundation and heavily into climate change denial, so clearly have an agenda.
The conclusion of the report they cherry picked their data from states:
“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.‘
This was a study of just over 300 people starting in 1972 up to 2003. As you can clearly read from the conclusion surgery is not enough and continuing psychiatric care is also necessary, it suggests that this care was not provided over the period of the study. More recent studies show a different outcome, I suspect psychiatric care has moved on a bit since this study. Maybe you could move on too?

If you are a man and think you are a woman, or vice versa, then you probably do have mental health issues.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 01 Apr 23 9.44am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace


So you took one article from the Heritage Foundation and think that proves something? They’re a right wing think tank funded by the Koch Foundation and heavily into climate change denial, so clearly have an agenda.
The conclusion of the report they cherry picked their data from states:
“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.‘
This was a study of just over 300 people starting in 1972 up to 2003. As you can clearly read from the conclusion surgery is not enough and continuing psychiatric care is also necessary, it suggests that this care was not provided over the period of the study. More recent studies show a different outcome, I suspect psychiatric care has moved on a bit since this study. Maybe you could move on too?

Actually I haven’t ever even heard of them or researched their material but thanks for the info. I heard it on the wireless a few yeas ago from some professor and that was before it became vogue to be trans. If the pool of people was too small to garner honest figures; how many should it be then. One person killing themselves over something preventable is too many! Also if you need ongoing psychiatric care even after the surgery you fight so hard for then just maybe you’ve made the wrong decision you think !

 

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