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June 1 2023 11.08am

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 01 Apr 23 10.49am

Originally posted by cryrst

AND up to 60% regret it within 15 years and up to 25% top themselves because of the regret. ( rough figures) Imo these people do need to try to be talked out of it but that is now frowned upon for some strange reason. Bodies are really the sum of your desire but hey who cares; itís not you !


"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said." is another perspective
[Link]

This really is the crux of the matter. 'If' the number is very low or low, it implies that significant regret could also be in 'not' viewing it as at least an option, and so the focus on the suicide risk of that should factor in.

To my mind a sane midway point should be sought, where politics isn't central. That would mean individuals should be given room to consider their identity over time, not either automatically identified as something by advocates intent on validating an outcome, or dehumanised and told their feeling are entirely invalid by people who know nothing about their experience. Having gender dysphoria must be a really tought spot. The desire of some to cobble together anything to make trans people look depraved is ludicrous, being that a significant number of them are clearly unable to change how they feel. It's just another issue where the political weight of something leads far away from the nuances of who people are, and sensible treatment of them.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 01 Apr 23 12.39pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts


"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said." is another perspective
[Link]

This really is the crux of the matter. 'If' the number is very low or low, it implies that significant regret could also be in 'not' viewing it as at least an option, and so the focus on the suicide risk of that should factor in.

To my mind a sane midway point should be sought, where politics isn't central. That would mean individuals should be given room to consider their identity over time, not either automatically identified as something by advocates intent on validating an outcome, or dehumanised and told their feeling are entirely invalid by people who know nothing about their experience. Having gender dysphoria must be a really tought spot. The desire of some to cobble together anything to make trans people look depraved is ludicrous, being that a significant number of them are clearly unable to change how they feel. It's just another issue where the political weight of something leads far away from the nuances of who people are, and sensible treatment of them.

I did forget to add that this was after a period of 15 years or more. Maybe put that filter on and the results could be a little different.

 

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View berlinpalace's Profile berlinpalace Flag berlin 01 Apr 23 1.48pm Send a Private Message to berlinpalace Add berlinpalace as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

I did forget to add that this was after a period of 15 years or more. Maybe put that filter on and the results could be a little different.


Yours was a much smaller sample and from 20-50 years ago. Maybe things have moved on a bit in the last two decades.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 01 Apr 23 3.18pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace


Yours was a much smaller sample and from 20-50 years ago. Maybe things have moved on a bit in the last two decades.

Maybe there weren't as many people going through the process. Like the number who might regret getting neck tattoos or having three inch earlobes.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 01 Apr 23 6.03pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace

Hi Hrolf, youíre confused, I know itís not easy when people keep using these terms interchangeably and expect you to keep up with modern usage. Hereís a very short video from Encyclopaedia Britannica that I hope will clarify things to your satisfaction.
[Link]

Give over. You are dancing around the obvious. We all know what a man or woman is, irrespective of terminology.

You haven't answered my question.

Do you believe that there are more than two sexes?

If you think that cutting off your dick and taking a few hormones makes you a woman, then you have been brainwashed by people who are bonkers.
You can claim to be what ever you like, but the facts don't change.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 01 Apr 23 9.17pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace


Yours was a much smaller sample and from 20-50 years ago. Maybe things have moved on a bit in the last two decades.

So how many is a good sample. 300 from a recent survey wasnít enough iyo.
Go on stato how many ?

 

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View berlinpalace's Profile berlinpalace Flag berlin 02 Apr 23 12.25am Send a Private Message to berlinpalace Add berlinpalace as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

So how many is a good sample. 300 from a recent survey wasnít enough iyo.
Go on stato how many ?

You want to believe that the one tiny little study that backs up what you already believe is the one we should all believe. Unfortunately for you science doesnít work like that, others have posted links to bigger studies and, as with so many other things, size matters. Plus, itís from twenty f***ing years ago, everything has moved on apart from your prejudice!

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 02 Apr 23 12.42am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace

You want to believe that the one tiny little study that backs up what you already believe is the one we should all believe. Unfortunately for you science doesnít work like that, others have posted links to bigger studies and, as with so many other things, size matters. Plus, itís from twenty f***ing years ago, everything has moved on apart from your prejudice!

Why does it have to be prejudice? Can't it just be lack of interest? Other people's gender might be the core of their own existence but why should it matter to anyone else?

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 02 Apr 23 6.39am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by berlinpalace

You want to believe that the one tiny little study that backs up what you already believe is the one we should all believe. Unfortunately for you science doesnít work like that, others have posted links to bigger studies and, as with so many other things, size matters. Plus, itís from twenty f***ing years ago, everything has moved on apart from your prejudice!

All Iím saying and referencing is that the suicide rate amongst (physically)transitioned humans is higher than in non transitioned humans if you want it to be PC!!!
It doesnít need a poll of thousands or hundreds to show this to be true. I would rather the psychological work was much more in-depth and even forceful to try to prevent the physical operation happening. Btw itís you who are prejudiced ;but against opinions which arnt like yours !!!!

 

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View berlinpalace's Profile berlinpalace Flag berlin 02 Apr 23 9.41am Send a Private Message to berlinpalace Add berlinpalace as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

All Iím saying and referencing is that the suicide rate amongst (physically)transitioned humans is higher than in non transitioned humans if you want it to be PC!!!
It doesnít need a poll of thousands or hundreds to show this to be true. I would rather the psychological work was much more in-depth and even forceful to try to prevent the physical operation happening. Btw itís you who are prejudiced ;but against opinions which arnt like yours !!!!


But, and itís a big but in this case, the study you quote is outdated. Not saying it is a bad study, and being one of the earliest studies it is important, and it does highlight some negative consequences of the surgery. It is likely that this has had an impact on how this procedure is now carried out. If this procedure was still causing a significant rise in suicides within this group I find it hard to believe that any reputable medical professionals would be willing to provide this procedure.
If it was really the case that this procedure was producing significantly negative effects, even without the extreme of suicide, Iíd agree that it should be avoided. But as others have said current research suggests a significant benefit for people undergoing the procedure. As the earlier study concluded, it is very important that people who undergo the procedure receive psychological support at all stages and afterwards. It may be that this study was instrumental in reducing the negative outcomes by highlighting the need for psychological support.
Current research suggests that things have improved significantly in the last couple of decades, not even the authors of your study suggested that there should be a halt to this procedure. If you want to cling to a view that runs counter to the evidence what should we call that? The Heritage Foundation have right wing political views as their excuse, you can choose to go with them or you can go with the data.

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 05 Apr 23 12.14pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

[Link]

Not sure what to make of this in terms of progress but it does seem like yet more backtracking to reach something that must surely constitute common sense which was previously superseded by a desire to align to social and political movements with complete disregard to logic and wider implications.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 05 Apr 23 1.57pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

[Link]

Not sure what to make of this in terms of progress but it does seem like yet more backtracking to reach something that must surely constitute common sense which was previously superseded by a desire to align to social and political movements with complete disregard to logic and wider implications.

The sports change certainly made sense, as biological men in womens sport provably puts women at distinct disadvantage, no matter if testosterone levels and the like were now reduced. The knock on effect on records, physical safety and the like is clear.

The bathroom issue has become near hysterical from all sides, clearly almost all trans women (as with all women, and indeed men) go to the toilet to actually use it. If someone is nuts enough to want to sexually violate others, they can do so without impersonating a woman, so it doesn't in any way reflect on a group as a whole. The other side is that it's fair in a womens space for those present to.. well actually be considered to be women.

I'd say the changing room issue is more difficult in that people are more exposed. There are aspects of that to any use of changing rooms though and to my mind places that just have individual cubicles have the right idea. Maybe that should be a law with new facilities goes forward, it would seem to be a sensible idea.

A 'careful what you wish for' with this proposed change is that if we base use of these facilities on biological sex, trans men (those who are visually male but are biologically female) are then forced to use womens spaces, and is that the most rational place for them to be? Doesn't that defeat the object (and question the logic) of bringing in such a single sex measures? As with anything newly hyper political, the realities and more nuanced than the lurches.

 

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