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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 06 Apr 23 9.52am Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

Certainly, I agree with many aspects of that. It would be unrealistic in many situations to have cubicles. Nor should be want to do away with gender based facilities, just because of relatively rare instances of people briefly using or wanting to use them whose gender expression aligns, but we realise (or don't) is not biologically our sex.

I just think we gave to deal with workable realities, rather than pushed politics from either direction. If the law changes to force people to use facilities based on biological sex then the example of the woman (to male) you gave above, she'd be forced to use womens facilities, and indeed a male-to-female who in some cases would resembles a female and is weaker than a man, would be forced to get changed around men. Where a concern is safety, that doesn't sound sensible either. I see this issue as largely being inflated out of proportion but tend to think that cubicles are a good option for those who could unsettle an environment - though of course in situations where a trans person is indistinguishable from others no-one would know or therefore care anyway - which itself gives us pause for thought about the realities of these situations rather than the pushed narratives.

That all sounds sensibly articulated to me however the I disagree with the emphasis placed upon a 'minority' of those that may be inclined to commit crimes or prey upon women and the fact that most 'would not notice' either.

It's not just a minority who would commit crimes in abuse of the situation it is an extreme minority, a miniscule number. I'd also highlight, as previously stated, relative to those with the intention to commit any such crime this would not be a sole inspiration for them nor a deterrent. However, there is only a miniscule number in the population who murder, rape, steal etc. We still do everything within our power to ensure their opportunity to do so is minimised including certain protocol. I also disagree, particularly within the female safe space context, that members of the same sex would not notice. I've heard many women support my inclination to believe 'they know'. Males might be somewhat more oblivious and equally un-phased by the prospect or reality however for females the ramifications and emotional response will justifiably be far greater.

Again, a neutral, single usage cubicle seems like an ideal approach. My argument would however be that if certain locations choose not to provide this or indeed are unable to, they should retain that right with Trans individuals having to accept that circumstance. Where I strongly object is the dogmatic perusal of ideological nonsense being allowed to infringe upon female right to single sex 'safe spaces'. There should be no superseding notion, argument or desire within society and anywhere it is openly expressed we should, as a society and culture, say no, YOU are the enemy here if you're looking to compromise and erode this.


 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 06 Apr 23 10.02am

Originally posted by georgenorman

I merely do not want men in women's toilets and women in men's toilets - a view that is no doubt shared by the vast majority of the population.

Hence how to achieve a workable outcome that most are happy with.

And comments on how laws that force spaces to be 'biological sex' only would force the person below to use female changing rooms, which would not seem to make much sense either. It's an issue all sensible perspective has been lost on so we can expect legal lurches and scare narratives to dictate, rather than common sense.

ftm.jpg Attachment: ftm.jpg (1,144.22Kb)

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 06 Apr 23 10.14am Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

Hence how to achieve a workable outcome that most are happy with.

And comments on how laws that force spaces to be 'biological sex' only would force the person below to use female changing rooms, which would not seem to make much sense either. It's an issue all sensible perspective has been lost on so we can expect legal lurches and scare narratives to dictate, rather than common sense.

Pffft.

I have more tattoos than that.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 06 Apr 23 10.16am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

Hence how to achieve a workable outcome that most are happy with.

And comments on how laws that force spaces to be 'biological sex' only would force the person below to use female changing rooms, which would not seem to make much sense either. It's an issue all sensible perspective has been lost on so we can expect legal lurches and scare narratives to dictate, rather than common sense.

Why are you posting photos of Wisbelch?

 

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 06 Apr 23 10.51am

Originally posted by Nicholas91

That all sounds sensibly articulated to me however the I disagree with the emphasis placed upon a 'minority' of those that may be inclined to commit crimes or prey upon women and the fact that most 'would not notice' either.

It's not just a minority who would commit crimes in abuse of the situation it is an extreme minority, a miniscule number. I'd also highlight, as previously stated, relative to those with the intention to commit any such crime this would not be a sole inspiration for them nor a deterrent. However, there is only a miniscule number in the population who murder, rape, steal etc. We still do everything within our power to ensure their opportunity to do so is minimised including certain protocol. I also disagree, particularly within the female safe space context, that members of the same sex would not notice. I've heard many women support my inclination to believe 'they know'. Males might be somewhat more oblivious and equally un-phased by the prospect or reality however for females the ramifications and emotional response will justifiably be far greater.

Again, a neutral, single usage cubicle seems like an ideal approach. My argument would however be that if certain locations choose not to provide this or indeed are unable to, they should retain that right with Trans individuals having to accept that circumstance. Where I strongly object is the dogmatic perusal of ideological nonsense being allowed to infringe upon female right to single sex 'safe spaces'. There should be no superseding notion, argument or desire within society and anywhere it is openly expressed we should, as a society and culture, say no, YOU are the enemy here if you're looking to compromise and erode this.


I don't disagree in that where there are single use cubicles (which exist in their millions, both changing rooms and toilets even without this issue being a consideration), or possibly specific facilities for those who would be better suited to them, that sounds like a win-win. But beyond that I see no sense in doing away with sex based facilities at all as they clearly serve a purpose and I understand the desire to fight to keep them. I do think in trying to be exacting in every instance we get no further forward or just create different problems though (my 'biological sex' point) and that common sense is largey already in place and working.

Society certainly takes steps to ensure safety of people - as it should but we do also have to prise reality of risk from media and political narratives designed often to distract or scare rather than problem solve. We can forensically scrutinise trans people - who in all likelihood as no or little more inclined to crime than you or I - when countless numbers of the actual released rapists and murderers you mentioned (who are certainly objectively dangerous) likely swan in and out of public toilets and the like with nowhere near as much attention. I don't think an ultra focus on political faultlines really reveals much at all about the people at the centre of said focus, other than either artifically raising them up or dehumanising them, neither or which helps them or society as a whole.


 

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 06 Apr 23 11.02am

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Pffft.

I have more tattoos than that.

Then it's decided, you're both fighting on the undercard of the next Anthony Joshua fight. The winner fights Caitlyn Jenner .

Edited by footythoughts (06 Apr 2023 11.09am)

 

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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 06 Apr 23 11.03am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Perhaps trans people could wear nappies instead of using public toilets?

 

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 06 Apr 23 11.07am

Originally posted by georgenorman

Perhaps trans people could wear nappies instead of using public toilets?

They do say that advice from experience is the best kind .

Edited by footythoughts (06 Apr 2023 11.08am)

 

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 06 Apr 23 11.10am

Originally posted by georgenorman

Why are you posting photos of Wisbelch?

It's promotional material for his next fight. He's often duking it out.

Anyway, enough distraction for today. Have a good day all!

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 06 Apr 23 11.18am Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

Then it's decided, you're both fighting on the undercard of the next Anthony Joshua fight. The winner fights Caitlyn Jenner .

Edited by footythoughts (06 Apr 2023 11.09am)

I actually did take up boxing again recently however if anything is indicative so far it is that no matter my sex nor my gender identification I probably do not have the fitness levels to fight a sloth as things stand.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View Pembroke's Profile Pembroke Flag Bristol 06 Apr 23 11.33am Send a Private Message to Pembroke Add Pembroke as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

All people are entitled to considerations of dignity, privacy and safety, not just those we decide are. That's why these issues are complex.

Your comment doesn't address the fact that your stance advocates, whether you like it or not, for trans men to be present in womens spaces. That would appear to defeat the point of what those advocating for this law change want. I certainly don't propose cubicles as an all encompassing solution to anything, rather that it's something already done in many places (prior to the politicisation of this issue) that can work well and ensures privacy of all - which is something that people could be just as passionate about.


Edited by footythoughts (05 Apr 2023 7.29pm)

Yes all people are, as defined by the equalities act, care act, and this is sex based law.

This issue is NOT complex if sex based law is followed. Least discriminatory options are CLEAR parts of law.

In regards to trans men to be present in women's spaces. A trans man is a women. They have not changed their sex. A minority of a minority may have and this is also covered by equalities law.

Society can provide trans facilities where appropriate, where there is a quantifiable need, and this can be risk assessed. The equalities act clearly outlines proportionate means to achieve legitimate aims (upholding privacy, dignity and safety rights for females).

The EHRC are also very clear on single sex guidance. Single sex spaces are single sex spaces. The service provider can discriminate against women identifying as men as proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim - dignity, privacy and safety.

Cubicles, yes and no. There is again guidance that is being ignored by diversity mission creep, and ignorance. Mixed sex Cubicles should not be a replacement for single sex spaces. A school can replace its single sex spaces for mixed sex, neither should sports centres, a cubicle if there are only cubicles should be in a lockable area to create a single sex area to uphold rights.

 

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View Pembroke's Profile Pembroke Flag Bristol 06 Apr 23 11.34am Send a Private Message to Pembroke Add Pembroke as a friend

Originally posted by Pembroke

Yes all people are, as defined by the equalities act, care act, and this is sex based law.

This issue is NOT complex if sex based law is followed. Least discriminatory options are CLEAR parts of law.

In regards to trans men.A trans man is a women. They have not changed their sex. A minority of a minority may have and this is covered by equalities law.

Society can provide trans facilities where appropriate, where there is a real need, and this can be risk assessed. The equalities act clearly outlines proportionate means to achieve legitimate aims (upholding privacy, dignity and safety rights for females).

The EHRC are also very clear on single sex guidance. Single sex spaces are single sex spaces. The service provider can discriminate against women identifying as men as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim - dignity, privacy and safety.

Cubicles, yes and no. There is again guidance that is being ignored by diversity mission creep, and ignorance. Mixed sex Cubicles should not be a replacement for single sex spaces. A school can replace its single sex spaces for mixed sex, neither should sports centres, a cubicle if there are only cubicles should be in a lockable area to create a single sex area to uphold rights.

 

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