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April 15 2024 10.56pm

Declining Western populations

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Mar 24 10.42am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

There is another way to look at this.

Our society has only really know growth and so called progress.

We managed perfectly well with a smaller population in the past and there were many advantages to it.

Less traffic, no housing shortages, no strain on services etc.

It seems to me that the main pressure to increase or even sustain population is financial and political.

Our whole system could be adjusted to allow for decline in population growth. It could be done with the will to achieve it.
Those who benefit from 'growth' are happy to see our societies crumble just so they can stay absurdly rich.

Our ageing society will not become younger by introducing migrants. It is a short term solution that can only make the problem worse. Migrants get old too.

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 21 Mar 24 10.46am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Itís impossibly expensive to have kids these days - address the generally extortionate cost of living as well as the ludicrous childcare fees, and that would go a long way to solving it.

Iím recently married and in my early 30s and despite being at the upper end of earning percentiles, kids still feels an incredibly hard thing to afford and we have agreed to wait at least a couple of years. In your 20s itís pretty much impossible without family support.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 21 Mar 24 10.54am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Itís impossibly expensive to have kids these days - address the generally extortionate cost of living as well as the ludicrous childcare fees, and that would go a long way to solving it.

Iím recently married and in my early 30s and despite being at the upper end of earning percentiles, kids still feels an incredibly hard thing to afford and we have agreed to wait at least a couple of years. In your 20s itís pretty much impossible without family support.

Agreed. My daughter and son-in-law both early 3Os, both have well paid jobs in the Space industry. Having just purchased a new house in West Sussex, and with a 16month old, without the daycare Nana and Grandad Iím not sure they would be able to afford it. Daycare costs are a disgrace and would not be worth both parents working.
All I would say EDN is donít leave it too late

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 21 Mar 24 10.59am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

Agreed. My daughter and son-in-law both early 3Os, both have well paid jobs in the Space industry. Having just purchased a new house in West Sussex, and with a 16month old, without the daycare Nana and Grandad Iím not sure they would be able to afford it. Daycare costs are a disgrace and would not be worth both parents working.
All I would say EDN is donít leave it too late

Yep, when we do go for it my mrs will have to drop out of work altogether for a while - unless you both earn north of £50k, I donít see how you can justify the full-time childcare costs. Itís cheaper to lose a salary and do it yourself, which is just insanity.

Something needs to give.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 21 Mar 24 11.00am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Firstly, the BBC donít concentrate on Britain in the article because it isnít about Britain. Itís about the bigger picture of worldwide trends and predictions in the most impacted countries. The idea that some places will see their populations halve by the end of the century will provoke a lot of debate.

Itís a very interesting and useful analysis. Itís a pity your reaction is not. Yours is to repeat the same old mantra of ďEuropeansĒ, aka ďwhite peopleĒ, being made extinct.

There are some intriguing thoughts there. The idea that once every countryís population is declining that there will be competition for migrants would at least stop the small boat crisis! We will be sending aircraft to Ruanda to get people rather than removing them.

With the probability of many more people in most countries having their racial roots in Africa the need to combat racism is highlighted.

One thing above all others stands out. With the average age of the population going to increase dramatically, and the number of younger working age people outnumbered by the elderly, the concept of retirement is going to need revision.

It seems to me that anticipating a period of non work at the end of your life, such as I am now enjoying, will become redundant. All those who can work will have to work until they no longer can. Society wonít function without them. Part time working, accepting the need to care for others and providing support services will become the duty of all, and not just those forced to do so by a lack of resources as now.

With regard to your last paragraph, how are people in certain professions going to be able to continue working into their 70s? Firemen, Prison Officers, Scaffolders? to name just a few. Indeed my job where you are working 11-12 hour shifts ( including nights). If you leave those jobs who would want to employ someone of that age? Jeez, my son has been turned down for jobs because, at 25, he would have to be paid more than a 19yo. Never been told this officially, obviously but the reaction of employers when he advised of his age, to,d the story

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 21 Mar 24 11.02am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Female fertility declines significantly in the thirties. Fertility mustn't be regarded as a given. It's also true that energy levels with parenting are also a factor.

However, it's ultimately what we are here to do.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Mar 2024 11.03am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 21 Mar 24 11.03am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Yep, when we do go for it my mrs will have to drop out of work altogether for a while - unless you both earn north of £50k, I donít see how you can justify the full-time childcare costs. Itís cheaper to lose a salary and do it yourself, which is just insanity.

Something needs to give.

My daughter has only had to drop down to 4 days because we are nearby to help. They also can work from home, so my hours are reduced

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 21 Mar 24 11.09am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

My daughter has only had to drop down to 4 days because we are nearby to help. They also can work from home, so my hours are reduced

one of the few jobs where Iíd guess you wouldnít mind the overtime!

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Mar 24 11.14am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Itís impossibly expensive to have kids these days - address the generally extortionate cost of living as well as the ludicrous childcare fees, and that would go a long way to solving it.

Iím recently married and in my early 30s and despite being at the upper end of earning percentiles, kids still feels an incredibly hard thing to afford and we have agreed to wait at least a couple of years. In your 20s itís pretty much impossible without family support.


As parents, we expect to give our children more these days.

I don't think there is ever a time when most people think they can afford them. We manage nonetheless.

I have two grown up children. I would ideally have had more. My daughter has three.
I'm not suggesting that we should return to Victorian levels of family size, but just opting to have three instead of one or two would push things in the right direction. Far too many people decide to remain childless these days. They are too busy indulging themselves or leave it too late and have fertility problems.
If people are going to have a substantial family, then they need to start earlier if they are in a stable relationship.

The alternative is to accept a smaller population where we pay more in order to pay for pensions, which we will all need at some point.
The current solution is doomed to fail and is causing huge social problems.

 

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View Behind Enemy Lines's Profile Behind Enemy Lines Flag Sussex 21 Mar 24 11.16am Send a Private Message to Behind Enemy Lines Add Behind Enemy Lines as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Yep, when we do go for it my mrs will have to drop out of work altogether for a while - unless you both earn north of £50k, I donít see how you can justify the full-time childcare costs. Itís cheaper to lose a salary and do it yourself, which is just insanity.

Something needs to give.

That's how it used to be. My wife gave up work to look after our children and never went back. We got by on one salary ever since.
My mother had to give up work when she got married, as it was a given that she would have children and it was company policy to leave on marrying. She never went back to work.
The issue is that the Government encouraged women to work irrespective of their personal circumstances. The UK got extra tax income and as a result the 'two times joint income' mortgage (or whatever the calculation was) led to the spiralling house prices which now force youngsters to live at home for longer/forever.
The something that has to give is probably the mindset that both partners have to work. If - and its a big if - my generation is free to hand down our wealth to the next, then that would put money into the family unit thereby freeing up one of the partners to give up work, and the cycle could then be broken.
I appreciate that scenario is from a position of privilege and that many families aren't in that position but it might help dilute the problem, if not solve it.

 


hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 21 Mar 24 11.26am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


As parents, we expect to give our children more these days.

I don't think there is ever a time when most people think they can afford them. We manage nonetheless.

I have two grown up children. I would ideally have had more. My daughter has three.
I'm not suggesting that we should return to Victorian levels of family size, but just opting to have three instead of one or two would push things in the right direction. Far too many people decide to remain childless these days. They are too busy indulging themselves or leave it too late and have fertility problems.
If people are going to have a substantial family, then they need to start earlier if they are in a stable relationship.

The alternative is to accept a smaller population where we pay more in order to pay for pensions, which we will all need at some point.
The current solution is doomed to fail and is causing huge social problems.

We also know there is a cost of living crisis and the average cost of a full time nursery place in London is 80% of the average monthly wage. Itís too easy to just talk about Ďmanagingí when the income/cost ratios are objectively so much worse.

I also donít think itís realistic to expect people to make such important life decisions based on population trends - I certainly wonít be.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Mar 24 12.14pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

We also know there is a cost of living crisis and the average cost of a full time nursery place in London is 80% of the average monthly wage. Itís too easy to just talk about Ďmanagingí when the income/cost ratios are objectively so much worse.

I also donít think itís realistic to expect people to make such important life decisions based on population trends - I certainly wonít be.

Everyone should have a choice of course, but I would say that having a larger family is ultimately far more rewarding than any other pastime or activity one might indulge in.
For sure, child care is absurdly expensive, and it is only when our governments recognise the insanity of the current path we are on that more will be done to encourage women or men to stay at home and raise families.
Financial crises come and go but just remember that not so long ago people had five, ten maybe fifteen children and lived on far less than many of us do now.
The consumer society has blinded us to what is important. We now demand two holidays a year, a huge flat screen telly, subscriptions to channels, absurdly expensive phones and a new car every couple of years just for starters. Sure we all want this stuff but paying for children is far more important and orders of magnitude more rewarding.

 

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