The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 lankygit  Lincoln 21 Feb 16 8.26pm |
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Originally posted by Tom-the-eagle
Yes but when we entered the EU back in 1973 we had the 3rd largest economy in the world! According to this it was the 7th largest, behind (not in order of size) France,Germany,USSR,USA,Japan,and China.
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| OldFella London 21 Feb 16 10.12pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Playing the man again. Well done. Nick - your comment plays the man also?
Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it.. |
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| matt_himself Matataland 21 Feb 16 10.19pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
*yawn* Tedious stuff, Matthew. The last bit is, I assume, some kind of tardy riposte to a past slight? Must have hit a nerve whatever is was. Oh, and you must think then everyone who relocates from London has only done it because of the foreigners? How unbelievably narrow minded. And you. Have you ever lived anywhere else apart from Uni for any significant amount of time that didn't have a CRO postcode? You act like you haven't. Michael, you could try and answer the questions put to you. For example, providing back up for your scaremongering with actual figures. I don't think everyone who leaves London does it to escape foreigners, I have never said that, but I believe you did. And you try and compensate for this by being ultra PC about the subject.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 16 10.19pm |
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Originally posted by OldFella
Nick - your comment plays the man also? No, it makes a point. BTW. I read your post in an Australian accent for some reason...
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| rob1969 Banstead Surrey 21 Feb 16 10.24pm |
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23rd June
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 becky over the moon 21 Feb 16 10.25pm |
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Originally posted by Slimey Toad
Sovereignty? Sovereignty? What sort of enhanced sovereignty will the average Joe enjoy when we leave? We can go back to our former elegant dark blue and gold passports perhaps........
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| DANGERCLOSE Online london 22 Feb 16 9.21am |
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Be brave back Boris and leave the EU!
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Feb 16 9.47am |
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I think that if we vote out, there will be a lot of disappointed people, when the UK essentially leaves the EU but addresses none of the issues they have in regards to the EU. We'll still be part of the European Convention on Human Rights, and have the European Court as a legal arbitrator. We'll still have EU working migration because the benefits to the corporate entities that UK governments represent will still have the same influence (which was the case even before the EU or Common Market existed). The UK will likely end up an EU Trade Partner with a series of agreements that essentially mean we're part of the EU. It'll cause a schism in the Conservative party same as it did in the 80s and 90s.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hoof Hearted 22 Feb 16 10.09am | |
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Listened to Radio 4 Today's programme this morning. First up was Nigel Lawson who confirmed the following FACTS when questioned about how we would cope economically if we voted to leave the EU.... The UK only exports 15% of it's total exports to other EU nations.... so not as significant as the stay in camp are claiming..... but we won't lose this 15% anyway because.... (*see below EDIT) We import over £300 Billion pounds of goods from other EU nations more than we export to them. If they are going to play games and impose tariffs on trade when we leave or other sanctions, then loads of other countries will form a queue to fill this void... but can you imagine Germany, France etc cutting off their noses to spite their face and harming their own export trade? Economically, the EU needs us more than we need them. Michael Fallon was interviewed - very negative all round but kept coming back to his only defence of staying in as "Better to be in the EU and shape it's future, than outside not!". Well didn't we think Cameron has been trying to do that for the last 2 weeks and failing miserably? The rest of the EU baulked at his very tame requests this time when they knew it will shape our vote on our continued EU membership. Imagine their future reaction to our requests after we've committed ourselves to the EU? As Tom said earlier in this thread - the EU is only ever going to expand as a Euro State with Turkey and other countries coming on board which will mean even more potential long term visitors to the UK that we cannot keep out even if we want to! EDIT: On reflection Lawson's 15% figure looks low, but that is what he said. I've seen graphs which show the figure more as 50%, but his 2nd point remains valid. Anyone out there who can prove or disprove Lawson's 15% claim? Here is the interview.... Starts about 1 hour 8 mins in from the start. I listened again he says our exports to EU represents 15% of our economy.... which I can believe. Edited by Hoof Hearted (22 Feb 2016 10.27am)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Feb 16 10.23am |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Listened to Radio 4 Today's programme this morning. First up was Nigel Lawson who confirmed the following FACTS when questioned about how we would cope economically if we voted to leave the EU.... The UK only exports 15% of it's total exports to other EU nations.... so not as significant as the stay in camp are claiming..... but we won't lose this 15% anyway because.... We import over £300 Billion pounds of goods from other EU nations more than we export to them. If they are going to play games and impose tariffs on trade when we leave or other sanctions, then loads of other countries will form a queue to fill this void... but can you imagine Germany, France etc cutting off their noses to spite their face and harming their own export trade? Economically, the EU needs us more than we need them. Michael Fallon was interviewed - very negative all round but kept coming back to his only defence of staying in as "Better to be in the EU and shape it's future, than outside not!". Well didn't we think Cameron has been trying to do that for the last 2 weeks and failing miserably? The rest of the EU baulked at his very tame requests this time when they knew it will shape our vote on our continued EU membership. Imagine their future reaction to our requests after we've committed ourselves to the EU? As Tom said earlier in this thread - the EU is only ever going to expand as a Euro State with Turkey and other countries coming on board which will mean even more potential long term visitors to the UK that we cannot keep out even if we want to! Thing is, this aspect is never going to change either, because the driving force behind cheap migrant labour are corporate interests of the UK. And the government isn't going to move to prevent companies taking advantage of this, through fear of overshoring (the UK is very dependent on foreign business and investment - as you point out with the import export figures). People seem to be tied into this idea that 'leaving the EU' will result in the UK 'taking back its borders', sending back 'foreign migrant workers' and 'stopping people coming here' - which simply isn't the case. This migration hasn't been because 'everyone wants to live here' its very cost effective for business on wages, a massive boost for private landlords and financially attractive to residents in the poorer EU countries. That won't change. Especially given that the UK is dependent on international corporations in terms of employment. The problem is that the membership of the EU in terms of economy, trade and migration aren't really going to be affected, at least in the short term, by an exit or stay vote (other than impacts on the stock market) - for the most part it'll make no recognisable difference - Companies will still exploit cheap labour markets and negotiate trade on the basis of mutual best interests. Voting exit, because you want 'less foreigners long term in the UK' is as stupid as the idea that suddenly business between the EU and UK will cease. Same as the ideas on 'sovereignty'
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| chris123 hove actually 22 Feb 16 10.34am |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Listened to Radio 4 Today's programme this morning. First up was Nigel Lawson who confirmed the following FACTS when questioned about how we would cope economically if we voted to leave the EU.... The UK only exports 15% of it's total exports to other EU nations.... so not as significant as the stay in camp are claiming..... but we won't lose this 15% anyway because.... (*see below EDIT) We import over £300 Billion pounds of goods from other EU nations more than we export to them. If they are going to play games and impose tariffs on trade when we leave or other sanctions, then loads of other countries will form a queue to fill this void... but can you imagine Germany, France etc cutting off their noses to spite their face and harming their own export trade? Economically, the EU needs us more than we need them. Michael Fallon was interviewed - very negative all round but kept coming back to his only defence of staying in as "Better to be in the EU and shape it's future, than outside not!". Well didn't we think Cameron has been trying to do that for the last 2 weeks and failing miserably? The rest of the EU baulked at his very tame requests this time when they knew it will shape our vote on our continued EU membership. Imagine their future reaction to our requests after we've committed ourselves to the EU? As Tom said earlier in this thread - the EU is only ever going to expand as a Euro State with Turkey and other countries coming on board which will mean even more potential long term visitors to the UK that we cannot keep out even if we want to! EDIT: On reflection Lawson's 15% figure looks low, but that is what he said. I've seen graphs which show the figure more as 50%, but his 2nd point remains valid. Anyone out there who can prove or disprove Lawson's 15% claim? Here is the interview.... Starts about 1 hour 8 mins in from the start. I listened again he says our exports to EU represents 15% of our economy.... which I can believe. Edited by Hoof Hearted (22 Feb 2016 10.27am) I think it's roughly 50% EU and 50% non EU on imports and exports, exports more invisible.
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| Hoof Hearted 22 Feb 16 10.36am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Thing is, this aspect is never going to change either, because the driving force behind cheap migrant labour are corporate interests of the UK. And the government isn't going to move to prevent companies taking advantage of this, through fear of overshoring (the UK is very dependent on foreign business and investment - as you point out with the import export figures). People seem to be tied into this idea that 'leaving the EU' will result in the UK 'taking back its borders', sending back 'foreign migrant workers' and 'stopping people coming here' - which simply isn't the case. This migration hasn't been because 'everyone wants to live here' its very cost effective for business on wages, a massive boost for private landlords and financially attractive to residents in the poorer EU countries. That won't change. Especially given that the UK is dependent on international corporations in terms of employment. The problem is that the membership of the EU in terms of economy, trade and migration aren't really going to be affected, at least in the short term, by an exit or stay vote (other than impacts on the stock market) - for the most part it'll make no recognisable difference - Companies will still exploit cheap labour markets and negotiate trade on the basis of mutual best interests. Voting exit, because you want 'less foreigners long term in the UK' is as stupid as the idea that suddenly business between the EU and UK will cease. Same as the ideas on 'sovereignty' Jamie - with respect this response is nonsense. Just like when you go on holiday, your kids have a party and it gets out of hand, you return and turf out the gate crashers and restore order. For the last 20 years, the UK has been acting like the above analogy. If we vote out I will be surprised if we don't adopt the same strategy as Australia... a points based immigration system which we will be able to control, just like Australia does. We will be able to control our borders.... we cannot now because of EU law.
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