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April 30 2024 10.21am

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Sep 19 11.20am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by W12

"collective wisdom"

"access to specialists"

"ability to communicate with people"

Don't make me laugh. We used to have politician's that would serve parliament after a lifetime of real work or service behind them. They understood the real world and real people because that's where they operated. Now we have ideogically driven people coming into politics straight from university or some quango, and housewives who think they are going to change the world armed only with their feelings.

Do you think politicians self select themselves and just walk into Parliament? We choose who we want. That the current party system is flawed and in need of root and branch reform is definitely true but it's down to us to reform it. I belong to More United, so I am trying to do something about it. What are you doing?

People like you will also defend a rich remain fanatic having fast tracked and direct access to Blairs unelected "supreme" court so that they can bypass the constitution, effectively pull a brand new law out of their own ass and say the government broke it in one stroke. Compare that to what's happened to the Tilbrook case that's been constantly blocked and delayed in the courts.

Gina Miller was the face behind a much bigger group determined to ensure that the principle of Parliamentary democracy wasn't usurped by default. The Supreme Court did not invent a new law at all. They had never before been asked to consider such a set of circumstances, probably because it was the first time that a stunt like that had been attempted. The law was always there but now it has been used and explained by the highest Court the constitutional principles have been better established. The reason it had to be dealt with quickly is obvious.

The liberal elite don't want to leave the EU and are willing to cause massive constitutional problems and even potentially large scale civil unrest to get their way.

The "liberal elite" are a mythical bogeyman dreamed up by the hard right elite to wind up people like you. No-one is trying to do anything other than find a safe path out of this mess.

People are not going to forget this and Brexiteers, like Trump suporters, are not going away.

The recriminations and blame game will still be part of public life 100 years from now. I too won't forgive Farage, the ERG and the Leave campaigns for their lies. I have though begun to turn my mind on what somes after Brexit and how we need to repair our broken political system and restore some faith in it.

I fully expect this to go down a very dark path now and the fault will be squarly with those that refused to respect the vote. They will stop at nothing it seems.

That's your opinion but one I don't share. There are many reasons why this mess exists but "not respecting the vote" isn't one of them. Everyone respects the vote, but in different ways. Giving "the vote" a blank cheque for people to interpret it in whichever way they choose is not to respect it. Respect demands responsibility.

Trump is flawed but still 100x better than any of the democrat candidates.

There are very few in history who are worse than Trump and all of the democratic candidates are. An opinion currently supported by public opinion polls in the USA

 


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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 27 Sep 19 11.27am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by W12


Don't make me laugh. We used to have politician's that would serve parliament after a lifetime of real work or service behind them. They understood the real world and real people because that's where they operated. Now we have ideogically driven people coming into politics straight from university or some quango, and housewives who think they are going to change the world armed only with their feelings.

You missed out ex Coronation Street Actresses

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Sep 19 11.27am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

So what does having a working majority actually allow you to do?
A proposal is put and a majority agree and a law or change Is made.
Are you saying that the minority can oppose these new laws or changes and the government cant make them!
Have you actually read labour's potential manifesto.
A s*** storm is coming as they will change laws with no thought; just to get their policies in place.

In the extremely unlikely event that Labour under its current leadership achieve a working majority then they can, of course, put their proposals into effect and pass whatever new laws they wish. That's the way it works.

I suspect we are likely to be into a period of hung Parliaments so minority governments unable to do very much other than non controversial things, or coalitions with substantial compromises needed.

Unless and until either, or both, major parties move back to the centre neither will command a majority on their own. In my opinion.

 


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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 27 Sep 19 11.29am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That's your opinion but one I don't share. There are many reasons why this mess exists but "not respecting the vote" isn't one of them. Everyone respects the vote, but in different ways. Giving "the vote" a blank cheque for people to interpret it in whichever way they choose is not to respect it. Respect demands responsibility.


How can a vote be 'respected' if the outcome of that vote is not honoured?

You can claim to have 'listened' to voters. You can claim to 'learn lessons' but the only way your respect a vote is by honouring the winning outcome.

52 beats 48 as a percentage. Every time. This is not a matter of nuance here. Or interpretation. It is all about an ability to count and understand how concepts such as 52 being a larger figure than 48 work.

If you want to ignore the vote or dismiss because you believe people did not understand what they were voting for then fine but respect? Seriously?

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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W12 27 Sep 19 11.38am

I started replying to all this but it's just clearly all bollocks.

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 27 Sep 19 11.53am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by W12

I started replying to all this but it's just clearly all bollocks.

I had a boss like that years ago - thought he was blessed with a bigger brain and therefore got to the right answer quicker than us mere mortals.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 27 Sep 19 11.55am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by jeeagles

Did anyone else see the irony in an MP hysterically screaming at the PM to mind his language whilst citing the murder of another MP when trying to make a point about toning down language using in the commons.

"No deal brexit" is also provocative language. They should say, leaving the EU trade agreements and signing up to WTO terms, but that doesn't sound sexy.

"Project Fear" was also provocative language, but that was referring to a negative remain campaign that has failed to materialise, at least to the extent predicted. Sure, the pound is low and my skiing holiday is now f***ing expensive, but stocks are up, house prices and immigration are slowing, unemployment is down, wages are rising, the national debt is shrinking, the balance of payments has improved.

It was good parliament has a debate on language today and Jo Cox's husband was critical of both sides.

Anyone on HoL see a solution to parliaments complete gridlock? Boris is either hoping that another nation will veto our request for an extension, in which case, all of these obstructions would be pointless. I've been told by political aides that we are permitted to pay another member state to veto an extension on our behalf.

Or, as parliament is now not able to function, it is likely that leave lawyers are hunting through the history books to find a case that can be used as a precedent to trigger a general election.

Utter hypocrisy coming from a party that have said the following:

[Link]

McDonnells support of the IRA!! I am sure Wissie will support it

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 27 Sep 19 12.00pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by W12

I started replying to all this but it's just clearly all bollocks.


What scares me the most is how delusional the Remainer mindset is. Like they genuinely think this Brexit Genie can be crammed back into the bottle. That somehow we will all just sit back and allow the betrayal to happen.

Lets be honest, there is a good chance now that people like this get their way. But none of them seem capable of explaining how it achieves anything?

The Brexit Party goes from strength to strength and the most basic core concept of democracy has been shattered. One of the many anti-EU tropes has been the fact that when people in member states vote against something it proposes they are ignored. Time and time again.

And now this. A clear and simple Leave or Remain vote. With Leave winning. And then not being implemented.

Are Remainers mentally ill? I know I am doubting my own sanity at times and have shouted at the radio and the television when I have to listen to yet another utter t*** tell me that actually I did not know what Leave meant and really I wanted to vote Remain but somehow my pencil slipped in the voting booth.

Lib Dems just want to tell me to f*** off. Thats fine. Plenty of people have done that. But at least they ain't denying the bleeding obvious.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 27 Sep 19 12.05pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It's up to us to elect who we want to represent us. I would rather have 650 using their collective wisdom, access to specialists and ability to communicate with people in their constituencies than delegate it all to one person, who then becomes a dictator. You don't really want that do you? Especially someones as flawed as Trump! Trump wasn't elected "to take decisions for America" anymore than Johnson was for the UK. In other words not at all! He was elected to head the executive branch of government in the USA. This is just one of 3 equal branches, none more important than another. He needs to work with Congress and within the law. Just as Johnson needs to gain the approval of Parliament for every action he proposes and work within the law.

It’s up to us to select who we want from a list of candidates provided. We’ve been through this: in many constituencies a lump of cheese could win provided it stood for the right party. They don’t need any qualifications or ability but when elected are magically endowed with the wisdom of the ages.
650 MPs are elected and we’re supposed to trust them to take decisions for the rest of us without complaint. Johnson is an MP. Johnson is part of the process. As PM he’s a very big part of the process.
Expecting everyone to go into Uriah Heep mode because a percentage of MPs apparently know what’s best for everyone is absurd.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 27 Sep 19 12.11pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

It’s up to us to select who we want from a list of candidates provided. We’ve been through this: in many constituencies a lump of cheese could win provided it stood for the right party.

And what made the June 23rd 2016 Referendum so beautiful. Every vote, equally weighted. An exercise in almost pure democracy. Sublime. A simple binary question and a promise from all the main players the result would be honoured.

What is not to like about that if you believe in democracy?


 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 27 Sep 19 12.13pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

These are same opinion polls that had Hilary Clinton leading Trump by 14 points just before the election. How many pollsters are visiting trailer parks and low rent housing schemes?

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Sep 19 12.17pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

How can a vote be 'respected' if the outcome of that vote is not honoured?

As both terms seem interchangeable to me I don't see that it really matters. What I suspect you mean is how can a vote be respected if what you thought would happen, hasn't yet happened? In that case the answer is that not everyone agrees with your take on this. Many do, including most on here, but whilst the majority of our MPs, whatever their personal opinions are, have accepted that we will leave the EU, they haven't yet agreed on how and when we will do it. They are though, in trying to find an acceptable solution, respecting the vote. Other MPs believe that the circumstances that now exist are so different to those that existed in 2016 that it necessitates them seeking confirmation that the electorate still feel the same way. That position also respects the vote as it respects the fact that people can become more informed and change their minds when a delay has occurred.

You can claim to have 'listened' to voters. You can claim to 'learn lessons' but the only way your respect a vote is by honouring the winning outcome.

MPs are not though there to simply do the bidding of a majority in a referendum, and especially one so small. Their job is to interpret the result and then do what, in their collective judgement, they think is best for the country and all its people. Those on both the "winning" and "losing" sides. This isn't a game of football.

52 beats 48 as a percentage. Every time. This is not a matter of nuance here. Or interpretation. It is all about an ability to count and understand how concepts such as 52 being a larger figure than 48 work.

Stating the obvious does nothing to address the real issues. As I just pointed out this isn't a simple question of we "won" so the MPs must do whatever I think that the 52% wanted. Within that 52% there will be a huge number of different reasons for voting as they did. Its the MPs job to decide what's needed.

If you want to ignore the vote or dismiss because you believe people did not understand what they were voting for then fine but respect? Seriously?

Most people, me included, are much better informed now than in 2016. That has to be undeniable. Listening and watching people today some are still pretty ignorant on the subject and just give emotional reasons, which is of course their right. There is though a plethora of viewpoints, particularly it seems in the leave camp. So you simply cannot claim to speak for 52% of those who voted and what they all expected or now want. That there is a large and noisy group, supported by the current government, who take the same line doesn't mean that Parliament must. If they disagree then it's their obligation to act. They aren't just there to make up the numbers.

 


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