Woman arrested for silent prayer, god save us

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 22 8.23pm
Originally posted by georgenorman She wasn't protesting. She was standing silently in a public street and perhaps silently praying. If that is breaking the law, then that law is repressive and people should support those who are being persecuted under it. Donations to her defence fund can be made at: [Link] That, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you is both her right and a different subject. This is only about whether her standing where she was, doing whatever she claimed to be doing, was in breach of an order. As a repeat offender, it seems pretty clear she was but she will have the opportunity to argue otherwise. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 22 8.23pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

She wasn't protesting. She was standing silently in a public street and perhaps silently praying. If that is breaking the law, then that law is repressive and people should support those who are being persecuted under it. Donations to her defence fund can be made at: [Link]

That, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you is both her right and a different subject. This is only about whether her standing where she was, doing whatever she claimed to be doing, was in breach of an order. As a repeat offender, it seems pretty clear she was but she will have the opportunity to argue otherwise.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 22 8.43pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays We have discussed this at length before. While I don't support harassment (not the make believe forms you have suggested) physical nor economic I don't in any way agree with you that all laws are forms of secular divinity that cannot be broken. I contend that within your lifetime you would have broken many laws, from the speed limit perhaps to paying someone for something that wasn't on the cards. I bet you never took yourself down the station. Indeed, sometimes the Police choose not to enforce laws for whatever reason. No, in my view it depends upon what the law is, the situation and the conscience of the individual. I have 6 points on my licence having been caught twice in a week very early in the morning, by some new cameras placed at traffic lights on an urban dual carriageway. There wasn't another vehicle or pedestrian in sight, but I accelerated when passing the lights to avoid being stopped. 2000 others also got caught in the first week! Unreasonable? However, it's the law, so I accept it without protest. Mine was an innocent offence, but that is no excuse I should have been more aware. This lady's is not an innocent offence. Being prepared to break the law is not the same as believing you are above it. If I continued to speed through those lights I would lose my licence. If I continued to drive I could be fined, then jailed. I don't expect this lady to willingly turn herself in. I expect her to be caught, just as I was. I also expect the level of punishments to increase until she is sufficiently discouraged from repeating her offence and if that doesn't work put somewhere where she cannot repeat it. The law applies to all, equally. Those who claim a conscientious justification for breaking it included. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 22 8.43pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

We have discussed this at length before.

While I don't support harassment (not the make believe forms you have suggested) physical nor economic I don't in any way agree with you that all laws are forms of secular divinity that cannot be broken.

I contend that within your lifetime you would have broken many laws, from the speed limit perhaps to paying someone for something that wasn't on the cards.

I bet you never took yourself down the station. Indeed, sometimes the Police choose not to enforce laws for whatever reason.

No, in my view it depends upon what the law is, the situation and the conscience of the individual.

I have 6 points on my licence having been caught twice in a week very early in the morning, by some new cameras placed at traffic lights on an urban dual carriageway. There wasn't another vehicle or pedestrian in sight, but I accelerated when passing the lights to avoid being stopped. 2000 others also got caught in the first week! Unreasonable? However, it's the law, so I accept it without protest.

Mine was an innocent offence, but that is no excuse I should have been more aware. This lady's is not an innocent offence. Being prepared to break the law is not the same as believing you are above it. If I continued to speed through those lights I would lose my licence. If I continued to drive I could be fined, then jailed.

I don't expect this lady to willingly turn herself in. I expect her to be caught, just as I was. I also expect the level of punishments to increase until she is sufficiently discouraged from repeating her offence and if that doesn't work put somewhere where she cannot repeat it.

The law applies to all, equally. Those who claim a conscientious justification for breaking it included.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Matov 29 Dec 22 8.43pm
Having somewhat of a change of heart of late about abortion. Morally, I still believe it is wrong but it is not our people who are terminating babies. The Right should be all about encouraging families and wanting a massive increase in the birth rate amongst OUR side but I suspect this is not a zero-sum game here. As to this lady, then one day I hope to see a world in which schools are named in her honour but I do wonder if this is not a fight we should be too emotionally invested in. More important hills to take a stand on than this one. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

29 Dec 22 8.43pm

Having somewhat of a change of heart of late about abortion. Morally, I still believe it is wrong but it is not our people who are terminating babies. The Right should be all about encouraging families and wanting a massive increase in the birth rate amongst OUR side but I suspect this is not a zero-sum game here.

As to this lady, then one day I hope to see a world in which schools are named in her honour but I do wonder if this is not a fight we should be too emotionally invested in. More important hills to take a stand on than this one.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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georgenorman 29 Dec 22 9.11pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle That, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you is both her right and a different subject. This is only about whether her standing where she was, doing whatever she claimed to be doing, was in breach of an order. As a repeat offender, it seems pretty clear she was but she will have the opportunity to argue otherwise. She is being persecuted for standing silently in a public street and perhaps silently praying. It is a repressive persecution of Thought Crime and all right-minded people show be outraged by it.
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georgenorman

29 Dec 22 9.11pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

She is being persecuted for standing silently in a public street and perhaps silently praying. It is a repressive persecution of Thought Crime and all right-minded people show be outraged by it.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 22 9.31pm
Originally posted by georgenorman She is being persecuted for standing silently in a public street and perhaps silently praying. It is a repressive persecution of Thought Crime and all right-minded people show be outraged by it. You are no doubt aware of the saying that the height of foolishness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? This is what both this lady and yourself are doing. She has been detained and prosecuted several times, but still does it. You have said the same thing many times, and got the same answer. If you don't like the fact that exclusion zones have been introduced to try to restrain the kind of activity she has been involved in, and think it ought to be permitted, then start your own thread and make that argument. You are fully entitled to that view. However, who runs the local authority there disagrees. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 22 9.31pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

She is being persecuted for standing silently in a public street and perhaps silently praying. It is a repressive persecution of Thought Crime and all right-minded people show be outraged by it.

You are no doubt aware of the saying that the height of foolishness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

This is what both this lady and yourself are doing. She has been detained and prosecuted several times, but still does it.

You have said the same thing many times, and got the same answer.

If you don't like the fact that exclusion zones have been introduced to try to restrain the kind of activity she has been involved in, and think it ought to be permitted, then start your own thread and make that argument. You are fully entitled to that view. However, who runs the local authority there disagrees.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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georgenorman 29 Dec 22 10.02pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle You are no doubt aware of the saying that the height of foolishness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? This is what both this lady and yourself are doing. She has been detained and prosecuted several times, but still does it. You have said the same thing many times, and got the same answer. If you don't like the fact that exclusion zones have been introduced to try to restrain the kind of activity she has been involved in, and think it ought to be permitted, then start your own thread and make that argument. You are fully entitled to that view. However, who runs the local authority there disagrees. Her physical presence in the public street was not a crime. It is the contents of her private thoughts that are being treated as a crime. If she had stood in the same place thinking about something else she would not have been arrested. It is Orwellian and anyone interested in protecting our freedom of thought should be up in arms.
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georgenorman

29 Dec 22 10.02pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You are no doubt aware of the saying that the height of foolishness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

This is what both this lady and yourself are doing. She has been detained and prosecuted several times, but still does it.

You have said the same thing many times, and got the same answer.

Her physical presence in the public street was not a crime. It is the contents of her private thoughts that are being treated as a crime. If she had stood in the same place thinking about something else she would not have been arrested. It is Orwellian and anyone interested in protecting our freedom of thought should be up in arms.

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Mapletree Croydon 29 Dec 22 11.52pm
Originally posted by Nicholas91 That still doesn’t justify the arrest in any instance. But still, I have happily stated my giving you the benefit of the doubt in it being true and reevaluated my stance on the whole thing. Yet again you lead with a personal attack however so here; I post as I feel others should, within the context of a discussion. I try to keep an open mind, put forward my thoughts on discussion topics and happily debate or explore where necessary. I’m happy to strongly assert my opinion but also to concede when appropriate, something others including yourself never, ever do. I also often post very light heartedly or with crap jokes, you know, it’s a palace fans’ forum. I usually take most things, within reason, for granted as truth no matter the source when it is posted on a fans’ forum. If this is proved incorrect I’m really not that fussed, says something about the source and not my laid back approach to such things. If you wanted a definition of the word ‘risible’ it is your accusation of another poster’s intention to contribute ‘with authority’. You’ve done nothing, from my experience, but try to patronise, attack and denigrate others. As I have mentioned numerous times previously, and recently, the act of actively seeking, to the extent of fabricating an enemy, as you did with me, to try and assert an imagined cognitive authority, is often the very weak sign of a failure. My thoughts were on the policing of this matter but in your hysteria to defend those seeking to abort their children you started harping on about ‘Muslims’ which had not been previously mentioned, not by me at least, alongside attacking a narrative I hadn’t provided. This demonstrates at best that you did not read what I had written, or at worst you were desperately seeking opposition to ‘hate’ upon. I would suggest you look inwards for your anger if you are looking to resolve this situation,” and not become dramatic with others on the internet, safely hidden behind a screen. So you carry on picking virtual verbals on the internet, if it makes you feel as though you achieved something, or a big man etc. which I would suggest is in lieu of that reflecting in reality. I tried to be fair and reasoned but I may as well converse with the cat given your responses. Aren’t you eloquent To repeat. It was risible to suggest the police officer have a quiet word with this lady You may not be aware that she effectively forced him to arrest her as she refused to ‘come quietly’. [Link] She told us that she has spent 20 years picketing abortion clinics, every week. Why do you think she would stop on this occasion? No matter how kind and polite the Police Officer was. It was she that ‘planted’ the line ‘I may be praying in my head’ so that the media could bay that this was a thought crime. Her backer, Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF, formerly Alliance Defense Fund) is an American conservative Christian legal advocacy group that works to curtail rights for LGBTQ people; expand Christian practices within public schools and in government; and outlaw abortion. It certainly appears that this was a pre-scripted stunt to give ADF a boost to its coverage.
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Mapletree

Croydon 29 Dec 22 11.52pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

That still doesn’t justify the arrest in any instance. But still, I have happily stated my giving you the benefit of the doubt in it being true and reevaluated my stance on the whole thing. Yet again you lead with a personal attack however so here;

I post as I feel others should, within the context of a discussion. I try to keep an open mind, put forward my thoughts on discussion topics and happily debate or explore where necessary. I’m happy to strongly assert my opinion but also to concede when appropriate, something others including yourself never, ever do. I also often post very light heartedly or with crap jokes, you know, it’s a palace fans’ forum. I usually take most things, within reason, for granted as truth no matter the source when it is posted on a fans’ forum. If this is proved incorrect I’m really not that fussed, says something about the source and not my laid back approach to such things.

If you wanted a definition of the word ‘risible’ it is your accusation of another poster’s intention to contribute ‘with authority’. You’ve done nothing, from my experience, but try to patronise, attack and denigrate others.

As I have mentioned numerous times previously, and recently, the act of actively seeking, to the extent of fabricating an enemy, as you did with me, to try and assert an imagined cognitive authority, is often the very weak sign of a failure. My thoughts were on the policing of this matter but in your hysteria to defend those seeking to abort their children you started harping on about ‘Muslims’ which had not been previously mentioned, not by me at least, alongside attacking a narrative I hadn’t provided.

This demonstrates at best that you did not read what I had written, or at worst you were desperately seeking opposition to ‘hate’ upon. I would suggest you look inwards for your anger if you are looking to resolve this situation,” and not become dramatic with others on the internet, safely hidden behind a screen.

So you carry on picking virtual verbals on the internet, if it makes you feel as though you achieved something, or a big man etc. which I would suggest is in lieu of that reflecting in reality. I tried to be fair and reasoned but I may as well converse with the cat given your responses.

Aren’t you eloquent

To repeat. It was risible to suggest the police officer have a quiet word with this lady

You may not be aware that she effectively forced him to arrest her as she refused to ‘come quietly’.

[Link]

She told us that she has spent 20 years picketing abortion clinics, every week. Why do you think she would stop on this occasion? No matter how kind and polite the Police Officer was. It was she that ‘planted’ the line ‘I may be praying in my head’ so that the media could bay that this was a thought crime.

Her backer, Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF, formerly Alliance Defense Fund) is an American conservative Christian legal advocacy group that works to curtail rights for LGBTQ people; expand Christian practices within public schools and in government; and outlaw abortion. It certainly appears that this was a pre-scripted stunt to give ADF a boost to its coverage.

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Mapletree Croydon 30 Dec 22 12.05am
Whilst the Public Order Bill is not yet enacted, protections for abortion clinics have to be made through temporary Public Space Protection Orders. The one in this case was introduced on September 7 and makes it illegal to protest by engaging in any act of approval or disapproval, including prayer and protest in a buffer zone around the clinic. The Birmingham City Council order says that: 'This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling. 'Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff. 'Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff. 'Recording or photographing a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff. 'Displaying any text or images relating directly or indirectly to the termination of pregnancy.' Probably in this case she will get the benefit of the doubt as she purposefully incriminated herself and refused to cooperate resulting in her being arrested. Not so, I believe, for her earlier arrests at the same site. We find out on 2 February.
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Mapletree

Croydon 30 Dec 22 12.05am

Whilst the Public Order Bill is not yet enacted, protections for abortion clinics have to be made through temporary Public Space Protection Orders.

The one in this case was introduced on September 7 and makes it illegal to protest by engaging in any act of approval or disapproval, including prayer and protest in a buffer zone around the clinic.

The Birmingham City Council order says that: 'This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling.

'Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff.

'Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff.

'Recording or photographing a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff.

'Displaying any text or images relating directly or indirectly to the termination of pregnancy.'

Probably in this case she will get the benefit of the doubt as she purposefully incriminated herself and refused to cooperate resulting in her being arrested. Not so, I believe, for her earlier arrests at the same site. We find out on 2 February.

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HKOwen Hong Kong 30 Dec 22 1.10am
From what has been shown on the video she was not doing anything prohibited by the order as far as I can see. If she is found guilty by way of intimidation or harassment, real or attempted, then we are royally screwed as a society There may have been other things happening earlier but the trial will decide, what a waste of taxpayer's money IMO Edited by HKOwen (30 Dec 2022 1.12am) Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.
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HKOwen

Hong Kong 30 Dec 22 1.10am

From what has been shown on the video she was not doing anything prohibited by the order as far as I can see.

If she is found guilty by way of intimidation or harassment, real or attempted, then we are royally screwed as a society

There may have been other things happening earlier but the trial will decide, what a waste of taxpayer's money IMO

Edited by HKOwen (30 Dec 2022 1.12am)

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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becky over the moon 30 Dec 22 7.41am
Originally posted by HKOwen From what has been shown on the video she was not doing anything prohibited by the order as far as I can see. If she is found guilty by way of intimidation or harassment, real or attempted, then we are royally screwed as a society There may have been other things happening earlier but the trial will decide, what a waste of taxpayer's money IMO Edited by HKOwen (30 Dec 2022 1.12am) It will be interesting to see how they apply the 'burden of proof'- i.e. innocent until proven guilty. Certainly she was standing in a restricted area, but apparently not outwardly breaking any of the conditions applicable to the restriction. It is only that she admitted that she 'may' be praying in her head, so the burden of proof is interesting! A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 30 Dec 22 7.41am

Originally posted by HKOwen

From what has been shown on the video she was not doing anything prohibited by the order as far as I can see.

If she is found guilty by way of intimidation or harassment, real or attempted, then we are royally screwed as a society

There may have been other things happening earlier but the trial will decide, what a waste of taxpayer's money IMO

Edited by HKOwen (30 Dec 2022 1.12am)

It will be interesting to see how they apply the 'burden of proof'- i.e. innocent until proven guilty.

Certainly she was standing in a restricted area, but apparently not outwardly breaking any of the conditions applicable to the restriction. It is only that she admitted that she 'may' be praying in her head, so the burden of proof is interesting!

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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cryrst The garden of England 30 Dec 22 8.31am
So let her stand there again until she approaches a woman entering the clinic and then we can all agree she needs arresting and the book thrown at her. This is really what is needed to prove this woman wasn’t there to pray this time or any time.
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cryrst

The garden of England 30 Dec 22 8.31am

So let her stand there again until she approaches a woman entering the clinic and then we can all agree she needs arresting and the book thrown at her. This is really what is needed to prove this woman wasn’t there to pray this time or any time.

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Mapletree Croydon 30 Dec 22 8.41am
Originally posted by cryrst So let her stand there again until she approaches a woman entering the clinic and then we can all agree she needs arresting and the book thrown at her. This is really what is needed to prove this woman wasn’t there to pray this time or any time. As above, praying is banned in this area. The lady said she may be praying. She was playing games with the Police Officer in order to get arrested. I have no doubt she would have stood there day after day until the Police were forced to deal with a complaint against her. It IS intimidating to have someone silently standing in your path. Especially if you are a 20 to 24 year old girl who is already feeling dreadfully guilty
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Mapletree

Croydon 30 Dec 22 8.41am

Originally posted by cryrst

As above, praying is banned in this area. The lady said she may be praying. She was playing games with the Police Officer in order to get arrested. I have no doubt she would have stood there day after day until the Police were forced to deal with a complaint against her.

It IS intimidating to have someone silently standing in your path. Especially if you are a 20 to 24 year old girl who is already feeling dreadfully guilty

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