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March 3 2024 6.40am

Can we adopt our 1861 date of birth?

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View lefty27's Profile lefty27 Flag ipswich 28 Jun 22 9.24am Send a Private Message to lefty27 Add lefty27 as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

For the avoidance of doubt the 1861 lie article was written by Gordon Law. Gordon is editor of The HOL (Penge Eagle). Gordon released a book in November called Palace Pioneers. I donít think the clubís line on its history matches what is in the book, although I havenít read it.

So are you suggesting that the author selected sources to support his narrative? There are two from the 1940s which are pretty irrelevant the handbook can be interpreted in both ways , for and against.
The other sources can be contradicted as have mannings. Thatís the thing with history, unless you were there you will never know and there will be historians trying to pursued you there book is the one that reflects the truth.
I couldnít really care less either way but the legend is cool and I donít understand some supporters negativity.
People seem to want to use it as some kind of stick to beat parish, itís weird.

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 28 Jun 22 11.40am Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

I remember all those times we went to away matches and the opposition fans would sing "Your only babies from 1905". Probably the biggest form of football banter.
Now we can sing "We're OAPs of the league", such wonderful times await.
I suspect our fan-base will probably expand exponentially, almost overnight, with the significant news of putting a new year on the badge and some wonderful new merchandise.
In the grand scheme of things, this is particularly important and poignant news for many of us. I can almost feel a connection to those cricketers and everything they stood for. I sincerely hope we change to those Blackburn Rovers colours, as we need to be making the most of this opportunity.
Worldwide, Wikipedia readers can now see we are genuinely an old club, a behemoth of the league, with an outstanding list of honours and achievements, which sometimes make me wonder why the whole club is not awarded the Freedom of the City, or even Selhurst anointed by Her Majesty the Queen?
The sense of excitement is almost overwhelming, there are ex players in Heaven, smiling as angels gazing down on upon the sheer brilliance and beauty of Thornton Heath and its environs as the right and proper home of a proud legacy. Hurrah for us and a certain Mr S. Parish.

Edited by ASCPFC (28 Jun 2022 11.42am)

 


Red and Blue Army!

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 28 Jun 22 1.09pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by lefty27

So are you suggesting that the author selected sources to support his narrative? There are two from the 1940s which are pretty irrelevant the handbook can be interpreted in both ways , for and against.
The other sources can be contradicted as have mannings. Thatís the thing with history, unless you were there you will never know and there will be historians trying to pursued you there book is the one that reflects the truth.
I couldnít really care less either way but the legend is cool and I donít understand some supporters negativity.
People seem to want to use it as some kind of stick to beat parish, itís weird.

When you say "legend is cool" I assume you put feelings ahead of facts. I think it's pretty clear in the article with lots of evidence that both CP cricket and football clubs folded. Do you have any counter evidence that states this is false?

 

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View lefty27's Profile lefty27 Flag ipswich 28 Jun 22 3.02pm Send a Private Message to lefty27 Add lefty27 as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

When you say "legend is cool" I assume you put feelings ahead of facts. I think it's pretty clear in the article with lots of evidence that both CP cricket and football clubs folded. Do you have any counter evidence that states this is false?

No because Iíve just read a couple of short articles sourcing documents that back their narrative. Iím not a historian with a lot of time on my hands so to most people itís down to which story you prefer or which suites your agenda.

 

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View YT's Profile YT Flag Oxford 28 Jun 22 3.16pm Send a Private Message to YT Add YT as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

I'm afraid it might be Dave.

I think it was just a joke but there is solid ground for a philosophical discussion IMHO.

It's interesting that the 'Trigger's broom' gag has been brought into the discussion. For 'Trigger's broom' is itself a resurrection of a joke that has prevailed for centuries ie it wasn't invented by John Sullivan.

Previous manifestations were: 'King Henry's sword'...'Cromwell's pike'...'Grandad's hammer/axe/rake/shovel etc etc'. I can even vaguely recall the joke being used on TV about 'Grandma's rocking chair', although I can't remember where and when (possibly it was 'The Waltons' or - for those of us of a certain age - 'The Beverly Hillbillies').

 


Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

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View SnapperKain's Profile SnapperKain Flag SE25 6PU 29 Jun 22 4.59pm Send a Private Message to SnapperKain Add SnapperKain as a friend

Originally posted by YT

It's interesting that the 'Trigger's broom' gag has been brought into the discussion. For 'Trigger's broom' is itself a resurrection of a joke that has prevailed for centuries ie it wasn't invented by John Sullivan.

Previous manifestations were: 'King Henry's sword'...'Cromwell's pike'...'Grandad's hammer/axe/rake/shovel etc etc'. I can even vaguely recall the joke being used on TV about 'Grandma's rocking chair', although I can't remember where and when (possibly it was 'The Waltons' or - for those of us of a certain age - 'The Beverly Hillbillies').

Goes back even further than that! The Ship of Theseus thought puzzle was proposed by Greek philosophers such as Heraclitus and Plato with the premise of if the ship of Theseus were kept in a harbour and every part on the ship were replaced one at a time, would it then be a new ship?

[Link]

I prefer the Trigger's broom version personally

 


The trouble with computers, of course, is that they're very sophisticated idiots

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View YT's Profile YT Flag Oxford 09 Jul 22 11.37am Send a Private Message to YT Add YT as a friend

Originally posted by SnapperKain

Goes back even further than that! The Ship of Theseus thought puzzle was proposed by Greek philosophers such as Heraclitus and Plato with the premise of if the ship of Theseus were kept in a harbour and every part on the ship were replaced one at a time, would it then be a new ship?

[Link]

I prefer the Trigger's broom version personally

Yes, someone else referred to the philosophical point earlier in the thread. I was, of course, talking about it being used as a source of humour, and then the irony of it being used in an argument about the age of the club.

Incidentally - is there any chance of the 'Fake News' story on the front page of HOL being replaced any time soon, I wonder? I'm a bit bored "of" seeing it each time I log in, and I suspect most people don't particularly care.

 


Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

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View Palace_Guard's Profile Palace_Guard Flag Kyiv 11 Jul 22 4.42am Send a Private Message to Palace_Guard Add Palace_Guard as a friend

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

If The '1861 Lie' article is Accurate, and it certainly reads that way to me, the Club was not Re-Formed in 1905, completely disassociating itself with any previous incarnations. It was a new entity. Quotes like
"To prevent misunderstanding, it should be pointed out that the Crystal Palace Club in existence before 1905, was a purely amateur concern and had no connection with the present Club." Glazier Gazette
and
"The Directors of the Crystal Palace Company have met the Company in a very generous manner, and there is every hope of launching successfully a first-class Football Club," wrote the South London Press (May 20, 1905)
pretty much put this to bed.

It's a great fairy tale, and one That I really Want to be true, but you can't change history to make it so.

Even though its a quote from a long time ago, im not sure if its exactly 100% true. There definitely was a connection.

 


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View Palace_Guard's Profile Palace_Guard Flag Kyiv 11 Jul 22 4.43am Send a Private Message to Palace_Guard Add Palace_Guard as a friend

Originally posted by crvenaeagle

Stevie P is is always desperately looking for new ways to make our club more marketable, which is appreciated as it's building blocks for our future, but this one however is just cringey for me. We can't fabricate a false history simply for the sake of claiming a title as "the oldest". It looks tacky to me, and it will look tacky to others.

He's never said that though, he's always said its up to each palace fan to interpret how they wish to. I dont think he's been pushing an agenda at all.

 


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View Palace_Guard's Profile Palace_Guard Flag Kyiv 11 Jul 22 5.04am Send a Private Message to Palace_Guard Add Palace_Guard as a friend

Originally posted by lefty27

So are you suggesting that the author selected sources to support his narrative? There are two from the 1940s which are pretty irrelevant the handbook can be interpreted in both ways , for and against.
The other sources can be contradicted as have mannings. Thatís the thing with history, unless you were there you will never know and there will be historians trying to pursued you there book is the one that reflects the truth.
I couldnít really care less either way but the legend is cool and I donít understand some supporters negativity.
People seem to want to use it as some kind of stick to beat parish, itís weird.

i agree lefty! Its very intriguing and fascinating, but i dont see any negatives from it.

 


Live in Melbourne or Victoria, Australia?
Support Crystal Palace?

Well join the Crystal Palace Melbourne Supporters Club:
[Link]

Adelaide, South Australia? Join here:
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deleted 25 Flag 11 Jul 22 12.48pm

Recommend a book titled Ďthe ball is roundí

Which has interesting info about the origins of footie (and rugger)

Does mention a CP

Depends whether you think that a club named originally after a building on the other side of the river can be linked. Certainly worked for Arsenal

 

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 11 Jul 22 8.06pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

I can't really see why there's so much argument about whether 1861 is right or wrong as pretty much everyone (pro-1861 and against-1861) agrees that there is no definitive claim to the earlier date; it's simply a question of how you interpret various facts. You either think the thread that runs from the earlier club to the 1905 club is strong enough to make the 1861 claim or you don't. But you can't absolutely prove the former beyond any reasonable doubt.

Personally, my view is that we shouldn't adopt 1861 as our date of birth (note; I said "shouldn't", not "can't" but that's simply because I err on the side of respecting a proven tradition rather than engaging in what can surely only be seen as revisionist history. I think you should only make the 1861 claim if the historical evidence for doing so is absolutely incontrovertible in support of the earlier date; nothing I've read persuades me that's the case.

However, as I've noted before the change to 1861 gives the club a nice little marketing/media opportunity and we all know that anything that looks like a new revenue stream is welcome. I suspect that's what's behind the club's enthusiasm for the earlier date as much as any interest in historical accuracy.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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