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Originally posted by Mapletree
For the avoidance of doubt the 1861 lie article was written by Gordon Law. Gordon is editor of The HOL (Penge Eagle). Gordon released a book in November called Palace Pioneers. I don’t think the club’s line on its history matches what is in the book, although I haven’t read it. So are you suggesting that the author selected sources to support his narrative? There are two from the 1940s which are pretty irrelevant the handbook can be interpreted in both ways , for and against.
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I remember all those times we went to away matches and the opposition fans would sing "Your only babies from 1905". Probably the biggest form of football banter. Edited by ASCPFC (28 Jun 2022 11.42am)
Red and Blue Army! |
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Originally posted by lefty27
So are you suggesting that the author selected sources to support his narrative? There are two from the 1940s which are pretty irrelevant the handbook can be interpreted in both ways , for and against. When you say "legend is cool" I assume you put feelings ahead of facts. I think it's pretty clear in the article with lots of evidence that both CP cricket and football clubs folded. Do you have any counter evidence that states this is false?
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
When you say "legend is cool" I assume you put feelings ahead of facts. I think it's pretty clear in the article with lots of evidence that both CP cricket and football clubs folded. Do you have any counter evidence that states this is false? No because I’ve just read a couple of short articles sourcing documents that back their narrative. I’m not a historian with a lot of time on my hands so to most people it’s down to which story you prefer or which suites your agenda.
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
I'm afraid it might be Dave. I think it was just a joke but there is solid ground for a philosophical discussion IMHO. It's interesting that the 'Trigger's broom' gag has been brought into the discussion. For 'Trigger's broom' is itself a resurrection of a joke that has prevailed for centuries ie it wasn't invented by John Sullivan. Previous manifestations were: 'King Henry's sword'...'Cromwell's pike'...'Grandad's hammer/axe/rake/shovel etc etc'. I can even vaguely recall the joke being used on TV about 'Grandma's rocking chair', although I can't remember where and when (possibly it was 'The Waltons' or - for those of us of a certain age - 'The Beverly Hillbillies').
Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes) |
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Originally posted by YT
It's interesting that the 'Trigger's broom' gag has been brought into the discussion. For 'Trigger's broom' is itself a resurrection of a joke that has prevailed for centuries ie it wasn't invented by John Sullivan. Previous manifestations were: 'King Henry's sword'...'Cromwell's pike'...'Grandad's hammer/axe/rake/shovel etc etc'. I can even vaguely recall the joke being used on TV about 'Grandma's rocking chair', although I can't remember where and when (possibly it was 'The Waltons' or - for those of us of a certain age - 'The Beverly Hillbillies'). Goes back even further than that! The Ship of Theseus thought puzzle was proposed by Greek philosophers such as Heraclitus and Plato with the premise of if the ship of Theseus were kept in a harbour and every part on the ship were replaced one at a time, would it then be a new ship? I prefer the Trigger's broom version personally
The trouble with computers, of course, is that they're very sophisticated idiots |
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Originally posted by SnapperKain
Goes back even further than that! The Ship of Theseus thought puzzle was proposed by Greek philosophers such as Heraclitus and Plato with the premise of if the ship of Theseus were kept in a harbour and every part on the ship were replaced one at a time, would it then be a new ship? I prefer the Trigger's broom version personally Yes, someone else referred to the philosophical point earlier in the thread. I was, of course, talking about it being used as a source of humour, and then the irony of it being used in an argument about the age of the club. Incidentally - is there any chance of the 'Fake News' story on the front page of HOL being replaced any time soon, I wonder? I'm a bit bored "of" seeing it each time I log in, and I suspect most people don't particularly care.
Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes) |
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Originally posted by CrazyBadger
If The '1861 Lie' article is Accurate, and it certainly reads that way to me, the Club was not Re-Formed in 1905, completely disassociating itself with any previous incarnations. It was a new entity. Quotes like It's a great fairy tale, and one That I really Want to be true, but you can't change history to make it so. Even though its a quote from a long time ago, im not sure if its exactly 100% true. There definitely was a connection.
Live in Melbourne or Victoria, Australia? Well join the Crystal Palace Melbourne Supporters Club: Adelaide, South Australia? Join here: |
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Originally posted by crvenaeagle
Stevie P is is always desperately looking for new ways to make our club more marketable, which is appreciated as it's building blocks for our future, but this one however is just cringey for me. We can't fabricate a false history simply for the sake of claiming a title as "the oldest". It looks tacky to me, and it will look tacky to others. He's never said that though, he's always said its up to each palace fan to interpret how they wish to. I dont think he's been pushing an agenda at all.
Live in Melbourne or Victoria, Australia? Well join the Crystal Palace Melbourne Supporters Club: Adelaide, South Australia? Join here: |
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Originally posted by lefty27
So are you suggesting that the author selected sources to support his narrative? There are two from the 1940s which are pretty irrelevant the handbook can be interpreted in both ways , for and against. i agree lefty! Its very intriguing and fascinating, but i dont see any negatives from it.
Live in Melbourne or Victoria, Australia? Well join the Crystal Palace Melbourne Supporters Club: Adelaide, South Australia? Join here: |
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Recommend a book titled ‘the ball is round’ Which has interesting info about the origins of footie (and rugger) Does mention a CP Depends whether you think that a club named originally after a building on the other side of the river can be linked. Certainly worked for Arsenal
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I can't really see why there's so much argument about whether 1861 is right or wrong as pretty much everyone (pro-1861 and against-1861) agrees that there is no definitive claim to the earlier date; it's simply a question of how you interpret various facts. You either think the thread that runs from the earlier club to the 1905 club is strong enough to make the 1861 claim or you don't. But you can't absolutely prove the former beyond any reasonable doubt. Personally, my view is that we shouldn't adopt 1861 as our date of birth (note; I said "shouldn't", not "can't" However, as I've noted before the change to 1861 gives the club a nice little marketing/media opportunity and we all know that anything that looks like a new revenue stream is welcome. I suspect that's what's behind the club's enthusiasm for the earlier date as much as any interest in historical accuracy.
Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God. |
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