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April 28 2024 2.57pm

9 dead in USA Church Shooting.

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suicideatselhurst Flag crawley 21 Jun 15 12.35pm

Quote Ray in Houston at 19 Jun 2015 4.47pm

Quote suicideatselhurst at 18 Jun 2015 11.22am

Very funny but not really an argument for writing something out of their contistustion, and less likey with a republican president most likely next up


I really shouldn't need a constitutional amendment; it just needs to be interpreted differently. People focus on this:

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

But forget that the above phrase is (I believe) controlled by what comes before it. The full phrase is this:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

The authors clearly intended for the populace - in the 18th century - to be armed in lieu of a standing army. That need has long since passed, and therefore so has the right for the people to bear arms, in my humble opinion.

Also, multiple restrictions on this right have been approved and upheld as constitutional over the years: fully automatic weapons; military-spec weapons; nukes; etc. etc. etc. are all banned. So what we're talking about is moving the line on what's allowed and what's not, rather than repealing the 2nd Amendment.

The politics around this really are insane. Pro-gun activists gin up gun owners (mostly responsible hunters and the like) that Clinton W. / Obmama / Clinton H. is coming for your guns, and scream about ever tightening limitations on gun rights. The truth is that, since Clinton passed the assault weapons ban in 1994, there hasn't been a single restriction on gun "rights". And that ban was allowed to expire in 2004. The very things that were banned by that law - assault rifles and over-sized mags - have been used in multiple mass shootings since, including for the Aurora movie theatre shooting and, ever more heinously, in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting.

In the meantime, in the absence of any actual resistance to expansion of gun rights, gun laws have been pushed ever further and further. Concealed carry laws, to open carry laws, to "stand your ground", to open carry on school campus; all these are real things in America in 2015.

I seriously doubt that a Republican will win the Presidency in 2016. Also, it's very possible that the Deomocrats can take back control of the Senate because Republicans are defending the majority of the 1/3rd of the seats in play than are Democrats (the House is gerrymandered to such a ridiculous extent that power cannot shift there until after the 2020 census at least).

Regardless, gun laws will only change if there is a strong and consistent demand for change from the public. Politicians are mostly immune to public opinion, but every once in a while they are forced by the sheer will of public pressure to get something done. Gay rights have been sweeping across the states like a wildfire because they have 70+% support of the public. So do gun control restrictions (a simple background check requirement has about 97% approval) so, with the right amount of pressure, gun control regulations can be passed too.

The timing of this horrific crime may actually serve to make this finally happen.


i think you make some good points Ray, the full admendment regarding milita, which was brought in to fight the British being one of them....however I still think a republican has a chance in 2016 even more so if Clinton is the running democrat, but do you really think that gun control can be brought in by public preasure, the NRA have huge sums of money to throw at anyone trying to change laws and perception

 


Theres someone in my head ... But its not me

X/Box game Tag bazcpfc1961, clan (HMS)

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 21 Jun 15 1.58pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Quote TheJudge at 21 Jun 2015 12.09pm

Sounds plausible, but have you been to the southern states or seen some of the comments on face book from the Bible belt ? For gun toting bigoted religious loons, the southern US rivals the middle east. And then they also have a gang culture which is not really the same here.
The biggest problem Britain faces is the ever increasing group of Muslims who refuse to integrate into British society. That needs to change. They need to stop listening to separatists and then we need to welcome them in to the fold.

Yes, I lived in the States for almost a decade. Agree, in some ways (in their individual ferocity) US nut jobs do rival Middle Eastern loons but the comparison is still tenuous. For one thing, they're not nearly as coherently organised -- they're not acting under a single banner. For another, the actions (Roof being a case in point) are random rather than co-ordinated. Gang culture is pervasive and destructive but unrelated,; it's more to do with drugs and crime than political posturing.

With regard to Muslims who "refuse" to be integrated into British society, agree but only up to a point. Why would you want to integrate yourself into a society that's spent the better part of half a century acting prejudicially towards you? Although that in no way excuses violence, we've made a rod for our own back.s For years, we treated immigrants like second-class citizens and now we're surprised to find they've had enough and are fighting back. Is there a shortage of mirrors these days?

People will stop listening to separatists when they experience something that attracts them in the other direction. We won't solve the problem with anti-terrorist laws (although that may reduce the actual violence.) In the long-term, we'll change it by changing the very nature of society and creating something that everybody feels an equal part of.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 21 Jun 15 2.51pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 1.58pm

Quote TheJudge at 21 Jun 2015 12.09pm

Sounds plausible, but have you been to the southern states or seen some of the comments on face book from the Bible belt ? For gun toting bigoted religious loons, the southern US rivals the middle east. And then they also have a gang culture which is not really the same here.
The biggest problem Britain faces is the ever increasing group of Muslims who refuse to integrate into British society. That needs to change. They need to stop listening to separatists and then we need to welcome them in to the fold.

With regard to Muslims who "refuse" to be integrated into British society, agree but only up to a point. Why would you want to integrate yourself into a society that's spent the better part of half a century acting prejudicially towards you? Although that in no way excuses violence, we've made a rod for our own back.s For years, we treated immigrants like second-class citizens and now we're surprised to find they've had enough and are fighting back. Is there a shortage of mirrors these days?

.


I agreed with your first paragraph about the stereotypical differences between middle eastern nutters and American ones.

However, this paragraph is full of foul smelling excuse nonsense....Not for violence I accept you aren't doing that but for 'victim culture' of the worst kind.

Firstly these immigrants who refuse to integrate came here.....No one asked them to come here.....They choose to come here. So this stuff about 'don't be surprised when they react to prejudice' is complete nonsense. Prejudice existed here long before they turned up and we all suffer under it to some degree....It isn't an excuse.

This country is giving them by far the best chance they have compared to many options so there is absolutely no excuse for a insular non integration mindset.

They cause a problem for society that did not exist before them came here in anything like the same numbers....We literally have a section of fifth columnists within our society hiding underneath excuse culture by the left.

There are no excuses and there should be no hiding place. The fact that there is....Is entirely the fault of a section of the left in this country.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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TheJudge Flag 21 Jun 15 3.08pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 1.58pm

Quote TheJudge at 21 Jun 2015 12.09pm

Sounds plausible, but have you been to the southern states or seen some of the comments on face book from the Bible belt ? For gun toting bigoted religious loons, the southern US rivals the middle east. And then they also have a gang culture which is not really the same here.
The biggest problem Britain faces is the ever increasing group of Muslims who refuse to integrate into British society. That needs to change. They need to stop listening to separatists and then we need to welcome them in to the fold.

Yes, I lived in the States for almost a decade. Agree, in some ways (in their individual ferocity) US nut jobs do rival Middle Eastern loons but the comparison is still tenuous. For one thing, they're not nearly as coherently organised -- they're not acting under a single banner. For another, the actions (Roof being a case in point) are random rather than co-ordinated. Gang culture is pervasive and destructive but unrelated,; it's more to do with drugs and crime than political posturing.

With regard to Muslims who "refuse" to be integrated into British society, agree but only up to a point. Why would you want to integrate yourself into a society that's spent the better part of half a century acting prejudicially towards you? Although that in no way excuses violence, we've made a rod for our own back.s For years, we treated immigrants like second-class citizens and now we're surprised to find they've had enough and are fighting back. Is there a shortage of mirrors these days?

People will stop listening to separatists when they experience something that attracts them in the other direction. We won't solve the problem with anti-terrorist laws (although that may reduce the actual violence.) In the long-term, we'll change it by changing the very nature of society and creating something that everybody feels an equal part of.


I largely agree with your comments on the States but where Muslims are concerned it's not so simple. All the prejudice you speak of did not stop large numbers of them moving to Britain did it, and I think most Britons would, quite rightly, be hard pushed to accept the oppression of women and all the other backward religious nonsense they bring with them. As a group, they need to recognise that when you move to a new country, it is you who needs to adapt, and I'm sure Britain as a whole would embrace any Muslims if they moved in that direction. This country has absorbed numerous cultures over the years and the idea that Britain is to blame for Muslims moving here and then not integrating is insulting and laughable. Perhaps we should have not allowed them all here in the first place to spare them all that "prejudice".

 

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 21 Jun 15 5.49pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 21 Jun 2015 2.51pm

Firstly these immigrants who refuse to integrate came here.....No one asked them to come here.....They choose to come here. So this stuff about 'don't be surprised when they react to prejudice' is complete nonsense. Prejudice existed here long before they turned up and we all suffer under it to some degree....It isn't an excuse.

This country is giving them by far the best chance they have compared to many options so there is absolutely no excuse for a insular non integration mindset.

They cause a problem for society that did not exist before them came here in anything like the same numbers....We literally have a section of fifth columnists within our society hiding underneath excuse culture by the left.

There are no excuses and there should be no hiding place. The fact that there is....Is entirely the fault of a section of the left in this country.

Stirling, this is an emotive subject. However.

First, you are wrong that "no one asked them to come here." We did, to all intents and purposes. Our economy needed more manpower to rebuild it after the war than we had available and the 1949 Royal Commission on Population said that immigrants of good stock would be welcomed without reserve to address this. The British Nationality Act of 1948 gave all citizens of the Commonwealth free entry into Britain (more or less precisely at the same time the US was shutting its borders with its own Immigration Act of 1952.) The fact that we asked them to come here is, of course, no excuse for what has happened since they arrived (on either side) but it is entirely wrong to pretend that "no one asked them to come here." We did -- because we needed the workforce they could provide, and the invitation is enshrined in law.

I totally agree with your point about the UK giving them a better chance than they would have had at home for a decent life...hell, that's why they came! However, I think the "insular, non-integrationist mindset" you refer to has been just as present among British citizens as it has been among immigrants though you may argue that as it's "our country" then the burden of integration is on them, not us. I wouldn't agree with that position, but you can legitimately make the case.

Blaming the left, or for that matter the right, or the immigrants, or the British population for where we are now is utterly ridiculous. Until we all start looking at ourselves instead of pointing fingers at each other, nothing is going to change. It took all sides of society to create the mess we're in today, and it will take the whole of society to change it.

Lastly, yes, I am a left-winger. But the above isn't about politics. It's about common sense.

Edited by sydtheeagle (21 Jun 2015 5.54pm)

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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Tom-the-eagle Flag Croydon 21 Jun 15 6.25pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 5.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 21 Jun 2015 2.51pm

Firstly these immigrants who refuse to integrate came here.....No one asked them to come here.....They choose to come here. So this stuff about 'don't be surprised when they react to prejudice' is complete nonsense. Prejudice existed here long before they turned up and we all suffer under it to some degree....It isn't an excuse.

This country is giving them by far the best chance they have compared to many options so there is absolutely no excuse for a insular non integration mindset.

They cause a problem for society that did not exist before them came here in anything like the same numbers....We literally have a section of fifth columnists within our society hiding underneath excuse culture by the left.

There are no excuses and there should be no hiding place. The fact that there is....Is entirely the fault of a section of the left in this country.

Stirling, this is an emotive subject. However.

First, you are wrong that "no one asked them to come here." We did, to all intents and purposes. Our economy needed more manpower to rebuild it after the war than we had available and the 1949 Royal Commission on Population said that immigrants of good stock would be welcomed without reserve to address this. The British Nationality Act of 1948 gave all citizens of the Commonwealth free entry into Britain (more or less precisely at the same time the US was shutting its borders with its own Immigration Act of 1952.) The fact that we asked them to come here is, of course, no excuse for what has happened since they arrived (on either side) but it is entirely wrong to pretend that "no one asked them to come here." We did -- because we needed the workforce they could provide, and the invitation is enshrined in law.

I totally agree with your point about the UK giving them a better chance than they would have had at home for a decent life...hell, that's why they came! However, I think the "insular, non-integrationist mindset" you refer to has been just as present among British citizens as it has been among immigrants though you may argue that as it's "our country" then the burden of integration is on them, not us. I wouldn't agree with that position, but you can legitimately make the case.

Blaming the left, or for that matter the right, or the immigrants, or the British population for where we are now is utterly ridiculous. Until we all start looking at ourselves instead of pointing fingers at each other, nothing is going to change. It took all sides of society to create the mess we're in today, and it will take the whole of society to change it.

Lastly, yes, I am a left-winger. But the above isn't about politics. It's about common sense.

Edited by sydtheeagle (21 Jun 2015 5.54pm)

I think (respectively) you will find it is you who are wrong here Syd.
My Grandad came to London from the Caribbean and my grandmother arrived from Ireland and I can assure you nobody invited either of them. Both wanted to come here in order to make better lives for themselves but neither were invited and in the case of my Grandad, he was most certainly not welcomed but some.


Edited by Tom-the-eagle (21 Jun 2015 6.25pm)

 


"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 21 Jun 15 6.39pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Quote Tom-the-eagle at 21 Jun 2015 6.25pm

I think (respectively) you will find it is you who are wrong here Syd.
My Grandad came to London from the Caribbean and my grandmother arrived from Ireland and I can assure you nobody invited either of them. Both wanted to come here in order to make better lives for themselves but neither were invited and in the case of my Grandad, he was most certainly not welcomed but some.

Edited by Tom-the-eagle (21 Jun 2015 6.25pm)

Tom -- it's a nuanced point. Did someone send them a letter of invitation? Obviously not. If, however, you change national laws to make it easier for people to emigrate then that is considered (metaphorically) to be an invitation to potential immigrants. So in that sense, yes, they were "invited" and you are also right to point out that far more immigrants came from Ireland than anywhere else. On all other points we totally agree.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 21 Jun 15 6.42pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Insightful reading: [Link]

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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legaleagle Flag 21 Jun 15 7.06pm

Bah,must just be "liberal left elite" nonsense and yet another example of politically correct propaganda gone mad,Syd

ps. Good link.

Have been to S Carolina and bearing in mind what I heard and saw there and elsewhere in the "deep South",doesn't surprise me one jot the old ways are far from dead.

 

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View Dweeb's Profile Dweeb Flag East London 21 Jun 15 7.14pm Send a Private Message to Dweeb Add Dweeb as a friend

Perhaps all these upity so called "supremeists" should have a word with the native peoples of North America before they start shooting anybody.

 


Taking the bungy jump since 1964. Never to see John Jackson in a shirt again

Sorry to see Lee Hills go, did we ever see Alex Marrow? We did January 2013

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derben Flag 21 Jun 15 7.19pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 6.39pm

Quote Tom-the-eagle at 21 Jun 2015 6.25pm

I think (respectively) you will find it is you who are wrong here Syd.
My Grandad came to London from the Caribbean and my grandmother arrived from Ireland and I can assure you nobody invited either of them. Both wanted to come here in order to make better lives for themselves but neither were invited and in the case of my Grandad, he was most certainly not welcomed but some.

Edited by Tom-the-eagle (21 Jun 2015 6.25pm)

Tom -- it's a nuanced point. Did someone send them a letter of invitation? Obviously not. If, however, you change national laws to make it easier for people to emigrate then that is considered (metaphorically) to be an invitation to potential immigrants. So in that sense, yes, they were "invited" and you are also right to point out that far more immigrants came from Ireland than anywhere else. On all other points we totally agree.

Depends by what is meant by "we invited them". At best (or worse) the government 'invited' them - as usual the people had bugger all say in it, just as people on the east coast have had no say in their locales being utterly transformed by EU immigration.

 

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legaleagle Flag 21 Jun 15 7.21pm

Quote Dweeb at 21 Jun 2015 7.14pm

Perhaps all these upity so called "supremeists" should have a word with the native peoples of North America before they start shooting anybody.


Pity they didn't have a word with them in centuries gone by before they shot most of them .

Edited by legaleagle (21 Jun 2015 7.21pm)

 

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