The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 SW19 CPFC  Addiscombe West 25 Apr 19 1.01pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
For me the great political/moral and any and every other conept you want to envisage, is how it is managed in terms of maintaining the notion of the nation state which does offer, badly I concede, still the best organisational structure for the individual to still have a semblance of control over their own life. I am as guilty as most in terms of this increasingly 20th century definition of left & right, with an unholy influence of dead Germans proving seemingly more malignent by the year but we all need to face up to the reality of the world as it is, not how we would like it to be. Throw in the increasing influence, whether we like to admit it or not, of technology over almost every aspect of our lives and what some long dead Kraut, writing in long-hand by the light of a gas lamp, may or may not have thought becomes increasingly irrelevant. The mobile phone in almost all of our pockets, and often more than one, is the most obvious example of that. That single device gives all of us the ability to communicate with the vast majority of people on this planet from not only the comfort of our own homes but, even at its most expensive, for effectively peanuts. Those alone undermine almost all previous given political definites from the 20th century. We take them for granted but they are the means by which globalisation is now part of our everyday reality. There is no good or bad about that, merely just is. But the notion of a bloc such as the EU, which is when all said and done nothing more than a protectionist collective looking to secure industrys that are no longer economically viable along with a terrible fear of what Germany may or may not do in future becomes more and more anachronistic by the year. We live in a new age and yet we are governed by the politics of last century. That has yet to catch up and may well be the harbringer of it all collapsing around us. On the globalisation point? Agree. It is not a choice. It is pointless attempting to resist it. Better to focus energies elsewhere, or waste life trying. It is an inevitability unless you remove technology from the equation.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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Park Road  25 Apr 19 1.03pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
Great news the sovereignty issue is finally sorted. It is going to China. 'Huawei the lads'!!!!!
The China syndrome?
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| Stirlingsays 25 Apr 19 1.05pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
For me the great political/moral and any and every other conept you want to envisage, is how it is managed in terms of maintaining the notion of the nation state which does offer, badly I concede, still the best organisational structure for the individual to still have a semblance of control over their own life. Sure, the genie can't....morally... be put back in the bottle but we can put the cork back in the bottle. Indeed, unless that is done the very concept of the nation state as anything cohesive at all becomes meaningless.....which is what the supporters of open borders/open ended immigration want anyway. We are already into more authoritarian times and politics and it's going to take the next generation of politicians to push that back. I never thought that I'd see the day when the Conservative party accepted intersectional feminism for social policy. But that day happened......I'm continually embarrassed by it. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2019 1.06pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 25 Apr 19 1.08pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
On the globalisation point? Agree. It is not a choice. It is pointless attempting to resist it. Better to focus energies elsewhere, or waste life trying. It is an inevitability unless you remove technology from the equation. Japan proves this incorrect. These are political choices, not inevitability. The damage most definitely can be contained at this point.....It's only America where the point of no return has been met.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 25 Apr 19 1.10pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
This from someone who thinks London is still a great place to live? That’s taking delusion to self hypnotic levels. In fairness that is extremely subjective. I also share that viewpoint – right now I'd rather be somewhere that stimulates and satiates my brain than going back in time to where the most exciting thing in my life would be seeing the same hedge (or insert literally anything here) every day in bland, boring and suffocating suburban hell. Staring at a white wall and waiting to die would probably be preferable.
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 25 Apr 19 1.12pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Hypocrisy? You ridiculed reaction to a post claiming hypocrisy and made a comment about 'superiority' with only your own opinion to back it up without actually highlighting anything from the post.
Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2019 12.52pm) Whether my Latin is correct or not, it was a petty response to my post which didn’t at all address the contents and instead ridiculed an opinion shared months ago in a completely different thread - quite why you’ve chosen to defend that I don’t know. I have claimed no superiority, and I would’ve thought it’s quite self-explanatory the parts of the post I was taking issue with; “If you stopped being such w***ers, just for a few moments, you might start winning people over a little. But you won’t. The thrill of being anti along with the terrible addiction to virtue signalling means you will carry on with being such terrible s*** c***s and fail to win over anybody with half a brain” Aim the ‘you’ at Brexiteers, and everyone’s foaming at the mouth in outrage - that’s the hypocrisy. It’s really not a complicated point.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 25 Apr 19 1.18pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Japan proves this incorrect. These are political choices, not inevitability. The damage most definitely can be contained at this point.....It's only America where the point of no return has been met.
I disagree. Just look at the reality of the situation. Technology is the one crucial spanner in the works that trumps political will and anything else for that matter, now the wheels are fully in motion. Plus there is no significant political will to reverse it anyway. So the point still stands. Also we've done this before, and you always use the same, limiting example. An anomaly does not prove a point. Even Japan is realising it has to open up to survive – it's slowly creeping in there. Let's say they manage to somehow hold it off for another 20 years, which in my view is near impossible, it doesn't matter. As Matov puts it, the genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back. For me, that's just an observable fact.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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Teddy Eagle Online  25 Apr 19 1.28pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Whether my Latin is correct or not, it was a petty response to my post which didn’t at all address the contents and instead ridiculed an opinion shared months ago in a completely different thread - quite why you’ve chosen to defend that I don’t know. I have claimed no superiority, and I would’ve thought it’s quite self-explanatory the parts of the post I was taking issue with; “If you stopped being such w***ers, just for a few moments, you might start winning people over a little. But you won’t. The thrill of being anti along with the terrible addiction to virtue signalling means you will carry on with being such terrible s*** c***s and fail to win over anybody with half a brain” Aim the ‘you’ at Brexiteers, and everyone’s foaming at the mouth in outrage - that’s the hypocrisy. It’s really not a complicated point. Apologies for the pettiness of my response. From now on I shall only respond with the solemnity commensurate with the gravity of your observations.
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| Stirlingsays 25 Apr 19 1.35pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Whether my Latin is correct or not, it was a petty response to my post which didn’t at all address the contents and instead ridiculed an opinion shared months ago in a completely different thread - quite why you’ve chosen to defend that I don’t know. Well, I don't know about other thread discussions and I'm only referring to these two posts. So I'm not making a commentary on anything outside that range. Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I have claimed no superiority, and I would’ve thought it’s quite self-explanatory the parts of the post I was taking issue with; No, you haven't, but you framed what he said as a claim for superiority. Indeed, few on the right are going to agree with the left on the whole 'superiority' question anyway. It's a major point of difference whereas you referred to it as if it's an accepted point. Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
“If you stopped being such w***ers, just for a few moments, you might start winning people over a little. But you won’t. The thrill of being anti along with the terrible addiction to virtue signalling means you will carry on with being such terrible s*** c***s and fail to win over anybody with half a brain” Aim the ‘you’ at Brexiteers, and everyone’s foaming at the mouth in outrage - that’s the hypocrisy. It’s really not a complicated point. Hypocrisy is the professing of attitudes or virtues that one, in practice, does not hold or demonstrate for themselves. I don't think that is what is being done there.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Matov 25 Apr 19 1.50pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
“If you stopped being such w***ers, just for a few moments, you might start winning people over a little. But you won’t. The thrill of being anti along with the terrible addiction to virtue signalling means you will carry on with being such terrible s*** c***s and fail to win over anybody with half a brain” Aim the ‘you’ at Brexiteers, and everyone’s foaming at the mouth in outrage - that’s the hypocrisy. It’s really not a complicated point. To a certain degree we are all hypocrites of the highest order but lets actually look at Brexit. Parliament voted by a huge majority to give us a referendum. We had it. And Leave won with 52%. And ever since then the 52% have had all sorts of abuse hurled at them by people who disagreed with how they chose, of their own free will, to cast their votes on that day. Along with all sorts of attempts to render the result on that day either null & void or somehow engineer another vote, without even the same question being asked, with the hope that it is ignored. Now the abuse itself does not bother me. Some of it is even probably justified. But what makes Remoaners w***ers of the highest order is how they want that vote ignored. That I find not only intolerable but essentially people deeming their votes to have more value than mine. Leave won. In an democratic process in which every vote counted, was equally weighted, the required margin was met for us to leave the EU. Seriously, what does that make anybody who wants that ignored? Disagree with me, that I have no issue but to try and usurp my vote, along with over 17 million others, and there I have some serious problems with your personal ethos. Makes you worthy of my contempt and certainly no respect is due. As I have said a dozen times, then once we leave and you want to campaign for us to rejoin, that is an admirable stance to take. Legimate and deserving of every protection available. But to want my vote torn up? No. Makes you a s***-c***. No otherway of looking at it.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Stirlingsays 25 Apr 19 1.54pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
I disagree. Just look at the reality of the situation. Technology is the one crucial spanner in the works that trumps political will and anything else for that matter, now the wheels are fully in motion. Plus there is no significant political will to reverse it anyway. So the point still stands. Also we've done this before, and you always use the same, limiting example. An anomaly does not prove a point. Even Japan is realising it has to open up to survive – it's slowly creeping in there. Let's say they manage to somehow hold it off for another 20 years, which in my view is near impossible, it doesn't matter. As Matov puts it, the genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back. For me, that's just an observable fact. Globalisation leads to increasing segregation and balkanization for the majority. You may wish what has happened to London for yourself but the reality is most don't. The map of Brexit was a pretty strong indication of that. It's not only Japan, it's large parts of East Asia like China and South Korea, which just happen to be the top of the IQ map. Indeed, what you are saying on globalisation only really holds true for Europe and the Anglosphere. People have been predicating the demise of Japan since the sixties. Not only is its standard of living higher than us along with its GDP but it retains its social cohesion and heavily rejects what you seem to suggest is inevitable. AI automation is due to take increasing numbers of blue and white collar jobs out of any requirement and so your view that millions of foreigners are required to live there seems to be a legacy one. They have done very well up to now. Indeed, the recent changes you refer to don't allow citizenship at all......I don't think that's a barrier they will allow crossing. They can see what would be lost....You call them racist from here. Indeed if they did what the west have they would be getting victimization culture from minorities, which in turn create whole industries. They simply don't want what the ideological mainly white left and the profit hungry rich right want.....and they don't need my advice because they are smart enough to know what to avoid.
Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2019 3.25pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 25 Apr 19 2.05pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
To a certain degree we are all hypocrites of the highest order but lets actually look at Brexit. Parliament voted by a huge majority to give us a referendum. We had it. And Leave won with 52%. And ever since then the 52% have had all sorts of abuse hurled at them by people who disagreed with how they chose, of their own free will, to cast their votes on that day. Along with all sorts of attempts to render the result on that day either null & void or somehow engineer another vote, without even the same question being asked, with the hope that it is ignored. Now the abuse itself does not bother me. Some of it is even probably justified. But what makes Remoaners w***ers of the highest order is how they want that vote ignored. That I find not only intolerable but essentially people deeming their votes to have more value than mine. Leave won. In an democratic process in which every vote counted, was equally weighted, the required margin was met for us to leave the EU. Seriously, what does that make anybody who wants that ignored? Disagree with me, that I have no issue but to try and usurp my vote, along with over 17 million others, and there I have some serious problems with your personal ethos. Makes you worthy of my contempt and certainly no respect is due. As I have said a dozen times, then once we leave and you want to campaign for us to rejoin, that is an admirable stance to take. Legimate and deserving of every protection available. But to want my vote torn up? No. Makes you a s***-c***. No otherway of looking at it. I do agree we’re all hypocrites to some extent, but I don’t think that means it should be left unchecked at all times. To me, anyone who justifies or defends their politics with phrases along the lines of ‘anyone with half a brain can see..’ or ‘the sensible among us know...’ is deluded - there are intelligent and sensible people on both sides of the political spectrum, and differences in opinion typically stem for personal interpretations of what the cause Having said that, your explanation above shows the post was more about morals than politics - I don’t necessarily agree with your summation, but hypocrisy was an incorrect accusation in this case, as you are consistent in your principles, so for that I apologise.
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