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jamiemartin721  Reading 02 May 17 11.50am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Don't you think killing gay people, rather than merely disapproving of them, is more cause for saying f**k them? I think killing gay people or imprisoning them is persecution, as such its just a question of how bad a state you are. Just because x is worse than y, doesn't validate y as anyway acceptable. F**k anyone who builds their entire moral outlook based on religious dogma.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 02 May 17 12.22pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think killing gay people or imprisoning them is persecution, as such its just a question of how bad a state you are. Just because x is worse than y, doesn't validate y as anyway acceptable. F**k anyone who builds their entire moral outlook based on religious dogma. So you don't think it is worse that some Muslim countries kill gay people compared to non-Muslim countries imprisoning them or just disapprove of them?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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 Kermit8  Hevon 02 May 17 12.33pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
So you don't think it is worse that some Muslim countries kill gay people compared to non-Muslim countries imprisoning them or just disapprove of them? No recent state-sponsored killings for gay people in Islam although obviously it is on the law statute book for many muslim countries where religion holds sway. Iran murdered three 6 years ago. A small mercy but it appears a very rare event - execution - enacted by governments, but how many 'disappear' through religious lynching, i don't know. Just found out 1861 and 1873 was when Great Britain and the US finally did away with the death penalty for being gay (and it only stopped being illegal in the 1960's). The Abrahamic religions are/were/will be again very nasty sometimes.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 May 17 12.36pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
So you don't think it is worse that some Muslim countries kill gay people compared to non-Muslim countries imprisoning them or just disapprove of them? I don't care to draw a distinction that some forms of suppression are more acceptable than others, because the penalty is less vicious.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 02 May 17 12.42pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't care to draw a distinction that some forms of suppression are more acceptable than others, because the penalty is less vicious. Yep. What's worse? 15 years in prison in Antigua being being gay or a swift death 5,000 miles away somewhere dusty ? Neither. They are both morally abhorrent.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 02 May 17 12.46pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't care to draw a distinction that some forms of suppression are more acceptable than others, because the penalty is less vicious. Extraordinary. I guess apartheid South Africa is no different to Zuma's South Africa then.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 May 17 1.17pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Extraordinary. I guess apartheid South Africa is no different to Zuma's South Africa then. Not enough to legitimise Zuma's government - Who effectively have monumentally failed the country, and blamed it on everyone else. In many ways they're worse - as they hide behind a hypocracy of inclusion, which has seen their systematic corruption destroy the infrastructure of the country in a manner that is as criminal as the Apatheid suppression of black rights.
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| Stirlingsays 02 May 17 1.40pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
What is a mainstream Christian country though? The UK isn't and nor is the US, they're not theocratic, they're secular countries with Christian populations. Obviously you can't really compare a country like the US or UK to say Iran (despotic dictatorship). Personally, I believe that any country that persecutes what individuals can do, that doesn't directly affect another persons freedom of self, is injust, its just a sliding scale of how unjust and persecutory those nations are. Theocratic regimes remind me of a medieval mentality, in which morality is enforced, based on a limited subset of moralists who have power. I'd agree, the US and UK are obviously secular countries with Christian populations. I suppose to be fair you'd have to go back in the thread and read what me and Kermy were discussing when we used the word, 'mainstream'....We were describing the majority accepted principles within that religion. It was so we could differentiate that between things like fundamentalism or even just minority sects within a religion. This was because the main thrust of my points was about how mainstream Islam had to reform....whereas Kermy's angle was that we just need to focus upon the extremists and he thinks it's unfair that Islam is being singled out. If you are bored enough it's a debate spanning quite a few pages.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 02 May 17 1.49pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Not enough to legitimise Zuma's government - Who effectively have monumentally failed the country, and blamed it on everyone else. In many ways they're worse - as they hide behind a hypocracy of inclusion, which has seen their systematic corruption destroy the infrastructure of the country in a manner that is as criminal as the Apatheid suppression of black rights. Fair enough, I agree with you on this.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 May 17 1.54pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Not enough to legitimise Zuma's government - Who effectively have monumentally failed the country, and blamed it on everyone else. In many ways they're worse - as they hide behind a hypocracy of inclusion, which has seen their systematic corruption destroy the infrastructure of the country in a manner that is as criminal as the Apatheid suppression of black rights.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 May 17 1.55pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'd agree, the US and UK are obviously secular countries with Christian populations. I suppose to be fair you'd have to go back in the thread and read what me and Kermy were discussing when we used the word, 'mainstream'....We were describing the majority accepted principles within that religion. It was so we could differentiate that between things like fundamentalism or even just minority sects within a religion. This was because the main thrust of my points was about how mainstream Islam had to reform....whereas Kermy's angle was that we just need to focus upon the extremists and he thinks it's unfair that Islam is being singled out. If you are bored enough it's a debate spanning quite a few pages. I find it disappointing, that in the 21st century people are still willing to surrender their capacity for moral and ethical decisions to people claiming to be sky fairy 1 or sky fairy 2, rather than draw self conclusions based on rational and logical discourse. Fundamentalism isn't about religion, its about political control of society, on both a moral and ethical basis, and the surrender of the self to a higher authority, in this case 'god'. But God could just as well read 'the party', 'the furher' or 'the chairman' etc. Its got as much to do with Religion and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union had to do with social inequality. Its all a dead end that appeals to people too afraid of their own being, and too stupid to embrace the freedom of their own authority.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 May 17 2.00pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Fair enough, I agree with you on this. I don't think its enough to be different, you have to deliver on that. The subsequent persecution of white people out of employment in South Africa and Rhodesia simply delivered failure, because the issue was never really about white people just having the best jobs. The reason why White Farms prospered in Zimbabwe was the experience, knowledge and education disparity in farming between those who originally had the farms and those who then took them over. They had the skills, qualification and experience to do those jobs. The process of social change has to be graduated to practicality not to serve popularise and ideology. You can't replace oppression with a different form of oppression, and expect it to be any more successful. No matter how much you can blame the failure on the 'white guy'.
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