Isn't the American perception of Trump now is that he is just a crook?

No, Penge, it wasn’t. Here is the charge for the Special Counsel: he is to investigate “any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. 600.4( a ).
(c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is
authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters.”

“28 C.F.R. 600.4( a ). Original jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall be established by the Attorney General. The Special Counsel will be provided with a specific factual statement of the matter to be investigated. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall also include the authority to investigate and prosecute federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, the Special Counsel's investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses; and to conduct appeals arising out of the matter being investigated and/or prosecuted.”

So far, 7 individuals have been successfully prosecuted or pled guilty for a variety of charges.

Papadopoulos pled guilty to lying after hiding his contacts with Russian government agents.

Flynn pled guilty to lying after being caught lying about meeting with the Russian ambassador.

Manafort was convicted of 8 counts of fraud and filing false tax returns, in which he had hidden 60m he was paid by the Russian backed dictator of the Ukraine. His next trial looks like it will go far deeper into his Russian connections, especially as it has now come out how close he was to a number of senior Kremlin officials.

Gates was pulled up similarly to Manafort, but made a deal which reduced the charges.

Twenty odd Russians have been indicted and one of the key guys, Kilimnik, is close to Manafort.

Add in President Trump’s own comments about wanting the Russians to provide Hilary’s emails, and he is part of a conspiracy. Look up what conspiracy means in this context: if someone requests an illegal act, and another person then commits said act and provides the first person with the benefit, even if the original intent was benign, it does not matter.

Oh, and President Trump and his lawyers confirmed that the meeting with Russian government agents was to get dirt on Hilary Clinton.

As for the argument that the investigation has not shown a direct link to Trump, I would argue it has. But whether I am right or not is irrelevant as he will almost certainly not be indicted whilst he is in office: thus making the argument that no evidence has been presented against him and no charges filed, moot. That is, at least until the report is complete. It is likely that will all remain out of sight.

Edited by NickinOX (22 Aug 2018 2.05pm)

Edited by NickinOX (22 Aug 2018 2.05pm)

This is the DEEP STATE trying to get rid of Trump via any means possible.....the democrats and the 'never Trumpers'.

The 'Russia collusion' has been investigated over years......let me repeat that years and it's had god knows how much money put into it. It's main purpose has shown that Trump wasn't directly involved in collusion with Russia.....but they won't write that up because the whole purpose of this report being drawn out is designed to damage Trump over the mid terms.

The only thing they have that I can see is the hush money for the brass....which is nothing to do with Russia....but hey.

It's designed to give congress enough BS to impeach Trump even though it's so incredibly weak......but it's all for political show as....as with Clinton the House won't get anywhere near the two thirds majority it would need to unseat Trump.

So basically this is politically motivated BS that tries to legitimate its transparent agenda.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Aug 2018 9.45pm)

Ok, here is what you claimed: “The Robert Mueller investigation was only to look for Russian collusion in the election... and has got nothing. Instead, his team has started scouring into other improprieties to people who are close to Trump. Paul Manafort's charges was from a time period when he wasn't even working for him. It's the Deep State still trying to take down POTUS.”

I pointed out your statement was not correct. It still isn’t. The investigation was allowed to look into other matters, as I showed, and it has charged and/or convicted a bunch of people.

Whether it finds prosecutable collusion I don’t pretend to know, but there is plenty of evidence of Russian interference and fair bit of evidence of Russian collusion. Now, whether that means Trump did anything wrong is anyone’s guess, but your specific claims about the remit of the investigation and its results were patently false.

Also, your claims about the meeting between Trump Jr and the Russians further highlights the problem with your argument. Trump’s campaign manager, his son-in-law, and his son met with a Russian agent for the purpose of getting dirt on a political opponent. It is illegal directly to get something of value from a foreigner to aid an election campaign. Now, we can quibble over whether they got anything of value, or what value means in this context, but it does not alter the fact (admitted to by Trump numerous times), that several of his key aides met with a Russian agent to get dirt on an opponent! By any definition of collusion, that fits: whether it rises to the level of criminal is another matter.

As for the moral equivalence argument, why? You’ve rightly called it out when people do it to defend Corbyn, so why do it yourself? Just because Clinton got away with one, doesn’t mean Trump shouldn’t be investigated.