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 Hrolf The Ganger  08 Aug 17 3.06pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Yep with you on that and probably exactly what those that were fired upon and their friends and families thought in 1972 on that Sunday in Derry. When a government's security forces start killing protesting civilians because they have the temerity to dissent then at that point the gloves have to come off. Oh well done. Whataboutery link Northern Ireland. This is what you have to offer?
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| Stirlingsays 08 Aug 17 3.08pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Any government that kills or unlawfully imprisons its own people, is unjust. You cannot claim to be a revolution for the people, and then kill those people who disagree. The greater good cannot be decided by the sacrifice of other people, only the individual can be relied on to make that choice themselves. Countries that chooses to kill in anything other than a last resort should be questioned. Those that endorse it, rejected. Essentially I think for a democracy to succeed this has to be the case. Opposition can't exist without the freedom to oppose without violence....and no opposition means no democracy.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 08 Aug 17 3.10pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
He's got a point, every time an unarmed man is killed by armed police, we should look very closely and as independently as possible at the event, circumstances etc. Whenever agents of the state kill citizens, we should be right to be concerned to the point that we dissect the event to certainty. The role of the police is not to kill citizens. The army is a different matter...as the battlefield is all about killing and what is just becomes moot..... but body cams for Police should be mandatory....and I'm about as pro Police as you can get. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Aug 2017 3.12pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8  Hevon 08 Aug 17 3.16pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
What happened on bloody sunday was not what happened in that video. That unit did not intend to murder people...I can't say about individuals. If that unit had wanted to murder everyone we would have been talking about far far deaths. That incident involved confusion and stress and mistakes....unforgivable mistakes. I won't defend it....but it wasn't the same. I repeat the British government did not condone murdering protesters. For you to waffle equivalencies with a terrible incident 45 years ago is just completely ludicrous. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Aug 2017 3.05pm) Ok the members of the 1st Brigade (The Parachute Regiment) were actually ordered into the Bogside and the use of live rounds was authorised. It's not nice but it's what happened. And as they moved forward, shots were fired indiscriminately into the crowd and into some of their backs because they were running away. Hardly the stuff of heroics is it? Yes, completely ludicrous any comparison as you say.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 08 Aug 17 3.23pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
He's got a point, every time an unarmed man is killed by armed police, we should look very closely and as independently as possible at the event, circumstances etc. Whenever agents of the state kill citizens, we should be right to be concerned to the point that we dissect the event to certainty. The role of the police is not to kill citizens. So you are comparing the death of a suspected criminal with political assassinations by left wing tyranny? A bit desperate isn't it?
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| Stirlingsays 08 Aug 17 3.24pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Ok the members of the 1st Brigade (The Parachute Regiment) were actually ordered into the Bogside and the use of live rounds was authorised. It's not nice but it's what happened. And as they moved forward, shots were fired indiscriminately into the crowd and into some of their backs because they were running away. Hardly the stuff of heroics is it? Yes, completely ludicrous any comparison as you say. Not authorized by anyone in the government. The murder of civilians was not authorized by anyone....show me otherwise. Actually it's a disgrace that you insinuate otherwise. Some soldiers apparently thought they were under attack but this was in error. What happened does happen when soldiers are under stress....It was wrong and I don't defend it. Your comparisons are without merit. You made them and you defend them but I don't respect this comparison.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 08 Aug 17 3.28pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Not authorized by anyone in the government. The murder of civilians was not authorized by anyone....show me otherwise. Actually it's a disgrace that you insinuate otherwise. Some soldiers apparently thought they were under attack but this was in error. What happened does happen when soldiers are under stress....It was wrong and I don't defend it. Your comparisons are without merit. You made them and you defend them but I don't respect this comparison. I don't expect you to but if you were watching a video showing Venezuelan soldiers shooting dead in the back thirteen civilian protesters in Caracas tomorrow because they could officially or unofficially you would be spitting venomous anger and rightly so. It's just a Stirling contradiction and there are plenty of those.
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| Stirlingsays 08 Aug 17 3.35pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
I don't expect you to but if you were watching a video showing Venezuelan soldiers shooting dead in the back thirteen civilian protesters in Caracas tomorrow because they could officially or unofficially you would be spitting venomous anger and rightly so. It's just a Stirling contradiction and there are plenty of those. Don't you read? I said I don't defend it....it would certainly make me angry. But your comparisons with this video are utter BS. What happened on bloody sunday was not sanctioned by a government looking to wipe out opposition. You bring up an event from 45 years ago that we regret and apologise for and you compare it to what is happening over there. Nonsense, pure whataboutery.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Aug 17 4.08pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
I don't expect you to but if you were watching a video showing Venezuelan soldiers shooting dead in the back thirteen civilian protesters in Caracas tomorrow because they could officially or unofficially you would be spitting venomous anger and rightly so. It's just a Stirling contradiction and there are plenty of those. Who's side are the army on though, I thought the government had recently put down a military revolt or am I getting confused and who's protestors are they? Phew, thank god none of the very pro-Capitalist South American countries have a habit of murdering innocent civilians either. Its almost as if politics and the desire for power are the problem. South American politics, genocide is seemingly a viable form of domestic policy.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 08 Aug 17 4.18pm |
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I don't think you are getting it. The point is that these events, horrible as they are, do happen. The country is in this case Venezuela but such things do and have happened and are probably going on in various parts of the world. Chaos anarchy more like panic but who can tell what mixture ignites these things.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 08 Aug 17 4.44pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
I don't think you are getting it. The point is that these events, horrible as they are, do happen. The country is in this case Venezuela but such things do and have happened and are probably going on in various parts of the world. Chaos anarchy more like panic but who can tell what mixture ignites these things. Is it part of the “effective and serious attempts to reduce poverty, improve literacy and the lives of the poorest in Venezuela" that Corbyn said it was important to recognise (rather than unambiguously condemning shooting people in the street).
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Aug 17 5.18pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The army is a different matter...as the battlefield is all about killing and what is just becomes moot..... but body cams for Police should be mandatory....and I'm about as pro Police as you can get. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Aug 2017 3.12pm) The army should never be deployed against its own citizens - But yeah when war is declared - its not reasonable to expect those killed by the military to have a full and impartial investigation. That said, the military should not be used for simple foreign policy benefits, rather as a means of combating genuine security risks and existential threats. The military deployment in Iraq was as close to a war crime as it gets, not by the military, but by those who engineered a war for their political expediency - I'm looking at you Tony Blair.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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